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Re:The $2 Trillion Project to Get Saudi Arabia’s Economy Off... by themartorana on Thursday April 21, 2016 @07:56AM (#11541326)
A toppled government in a fundamentalist region suffering economic fallout from the falling global demand for oil does nota democracy fuel. While I agree with everyone that sees SA as a terror-governed state, perhaps you've been around for some portion of the past 50 or so years and have witnessed what Western-exported democracy looks like in the Middle East right now.

SA's problems are plenty, but it shares the entire region's SPOF economy. Tackling that shouldn't be dismissed because we don't like the government. Suffering the hardest happens to the least of people, so making the transition to a post-oil economy as smooth as possible - House of Saud in tact - still prevents an incredible amount of suffering.

Re:The $2 Trillion Project to Get Saudi Arabia’s Economy Off... by mafribe on Thursday April 21, 2016 @08:12AM (#11541412)
I agree with you in many ways, and have been critical of military means that were marketed as "bringing democracy". Irak, Libya, and Syria come to mind as terrifying recent examples. Incidentally the House of Saud supported the military actions in all three cases.

But yhere is a world of difference between a journalist asking critical questions, and bombing a country.

It's a journalist's task to ask autocratic rulers critical questions. The Bloomberg piece does not do this, instead raving "how comfortable meeting him was".

The target audience of this piece is the US population. The house of Saud invests a great deal of money in misleading the US population, so as to ensure that the US continues its support of the status quo, which is highly convenient for the House of Saud, but a disaster for just about anybody else. See e.g. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2016/04/20/...

The question how to engineer a peaceful transition away from the House of Saud to a meaningful democracy (or even a more enlightened dictatorship such as Dubai), is a deep and complex one, and I don't purport to have an answer. But it's good to understand how autocratic rulers such as the House of Saud manipulate public opinion.

Re:The $2 Trillion Project to Get Saudi Arabia’s Economy Off... by nashashmi on Thursday April 21, 2016 @08:35AM (#11541568)
>It's a journalist's task to ask autocratic rulers critical questions.

Not always, unless you are doing a hit piece. Sometimes it is also a task to simply gather information on a subject that people know very little about. Sometimes the process of gathering info is so sensitive that you don't want to do anything to influence the observations you make like cause discomfort and create moments of silence.

There were some important revelations in this article. It shows the leadership is trying to make changes. It highlights the stakes involved. It shows the geopolitical map of Saudi Arabia. That is not fluff.

Re:The $2 Trillion Project to Get Saudi Arabia’s Economy Off... by iheartmemcache on Thursday April 21, 2016 @09:44AM (#11542034)
> "It's a journalist's task to ask autocratic rulers critical questions." Yes in theory.. Look at it from a "who benefits and how, POV" and this puff piece makes sense. Oil's been bearish for a remarkable length of time.

It's in Bloomberg's best interests to make the ME look less like a one-trick pony so general market consensus goes up (any volatility = TV going off mute + viewership retention & people going to their Bloomberg terminals, etc).

It's in the journo's best interests because he gets '8 exclusive unprecedented hours' upping his profile so his executive editor will choose him for the next interview with Bill Gross or whomever.

It's in the House of Saud's best interest for a wide variety of reasons. Everyone's got to get their pound (Franc, greenback, yen, ruble, or .. )

W/r/t having a nation with a PR/lobby in the US - I guarantee you every nation with a GDP of eh maybe half a trillion will have one. Look at the registered employee list of K-street firms and their clientele.

The closest thing you'll get to 'hard hitting questions' (and I'm not talking hit-pieces, I'm talking about Kronkite and Murrow) is the BBC Newshour (Lyse Ducette and Owen Bennet Jones -- though Americans find it dry, I couldn't love their coverage more, although it's a bit of a family love-affair), PBS Newshour (basically everyone on their staff), and to some extent Shane & Sooresh's VICE which has retained some of the best producers and on-the-ground coverage I've seen in recent news.

Re:The $2 Trillion Project to Get Saudi Arabia’s Economy Off... by usefulcat on Thursday April 21, 2016 @10:29AM (#11542383)
> Oil's been bearish for a remarkable length of time.

Yes, and it's largely because of Saudi Arabia:

"Saudi Arabia has maintained a high level of oil production despite the slump in crude oil prices, arguing it needs to protect its market share in an economy in flux because of the glut of U.S. oil."

http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Energy-Industry/2015/07/13/...

Re:The $2 Trillion Project to Get Saudi Arabia’s Economy Off... by vidarh on Thursday April 21, 2016 @11:15AM (#11542758)
> I guarantee you every nation with a GDP of eh maybe half a trillion will have one. Look at the registered employee list of K-street firms and their clientele.

Case in point: Here[1] is an article that spends a considerable chunk talking about how Norway pours money into Brookings Institution and Center for Global Development and others to influence US policy.

"The country has committed at least $24 million to an array of Washington think tanks over the past four years, according to a tally by The Times, transforming these nonprofits into a powerful but largely hidden arm of the Norway Foreign Affairs Ministry. "

Lobbying the US government is basically essential for any foreign power because of the outsize influence the US has on the world.

[1] http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/07/us/politics/foreign-powers...

Re:The $2 Trillion Project to Get Saudi Arabia’s Economy Off... by themartorana on Thursday April 21, 2016 @08:22AM (#11541466)
I agree with this. The piece itself is super fluffy.

That said, I can understand, to a degree "comfort" netting him, etc. It is a head of state, but more importantly, the whole government/ruling family is quite mysterious. You have no idea how practical his ideas will be, especially at that scale.

Still, though, you're right. Any amount of serious journalism here would have been welcome.

Re:The $2 Trillion Project to Get Saudi Arabia’s Economy Off... by kobayashi on Thursday April 21, 2016 @12:14PM (#11543245)
Now you're just getting your facts wrong. Saudi Arabia most certainly did not support the second Iraq war. They went along with it but were mortified when the US essentially handed it over to Iranian control/influence.

I am not a lover the SA regime, but it's important that one's lack of geopolitical knowledge doesn't spread more misinformation.

Re:The $2 Trillion Project to Get Saudi Arabia’s Economy Off... by mafribe on Thursday April 21, 2016 @03:58PM (#11544937)
Yes, you are right. Sorry. Alas, I can't edit my original message any more.
Re:The $2 Trillion Project to Get Saudi Arabia’s Economy Off... by CPLX on Thursday April 21, 2016 @09:36AM (#11541977)
> It's a journalist's task to ask autocratic rulers critical questions.

No it's not. It is, as a whole, the job of journalism to do that, but not necessarily a specific journalist's job.

A journalist's job is to tell the truth, not necessarily the whole truth. There is often quite a bit of value in getting the perspective of a single person or entity on a specific subject without attempting to add full and complete context.

Re:The $2 Trillion Project to Get Saudi Arabia’s Economy Off... by devishard on Thursday April 21, 2016 @10:45AM (#11542506)
> perhaps you've been around for some portion of the past 50 or so years and have witnessed what Western-exported democracy looks like in the Middle East right now.

Does it occur to you that the problem here is that Western-exported democracies aren't democracies, but instead puppet states? This has little resemblance to a real democracy founded by members of its own nation with their own cultural values.

There's a big difference between invading Saudi Arabia and setting up a banana republic, and journalism that criticizes the Saudis for their authoritarianism.

> Tackling that shouldn't be dismissed because we don't like the government.

No one is doing that. We can accurately describe all of Saudi Arabia's issues, including their authoritarian rulers.

Re:The $2 Trillion Project to Get Saudi Arabia’s Economy Off... by klibertp on Thursday April 21, 2016 @11:00AM (#11542639)
There's a related blog post here (also many other insightful posts):

https://geopoliticsmadesuper.com/2016/04/20/why-saudi-arabia...

In short: liberal democracy requires liberal elites to be present and not vastly outnumbered. Without this condition fulfilled what you get after a revolution is what you had before despotism: tribalism and sectarianism, permanent civil war and the likes.

Re:The $2 Trillion Project to Get Saudi Arabia’s Economy Off... by devishard on Thursday April 21, 2016 @01:23PM (#11543789)
Sure, we should definitely just give up and accept that there just aren't enough liberal elites in Saudi Arabia, so they won't ever be able to handle democracy. /sarcasm

It's an entirely Western colonist idea that poor people in developing countries can't handle democracy and therefore have to accept dictatorships (which just happen to align with Western interests).

Re:The $2 Trillion Project to Get Saudi Arabia’s Economy Off... by klibertp on Monday April 25, 2016 @12:19PM (#11565265)
> It's an entirely Western colonist idea that poor people in developing countries can't handle democracy and therefore have to accept dictatorships (which just happen to align with Western interests).

Look, no one is able to "handle democracy" before being prepared for this. Isn't this obvious? Even the Tsar Peter the Great, who wanted to modernize Russia, went and for a couple of years studied technical skills in Holland (IIRC - I may be wrong on all the details here...) instead of simply saying "let's make our shipyards modern! now!".

I never said that the societies in the Middle East can't ever do democracy. I just said that if they tried right now the results wouldn't be pretty. Give them another two or three decades of successive education and liberalization and they will be able to build a modern, well-functioning democracy overnight!

Re:The $2 Trillion Project to Get Saudi Arabia’s Economy Off... by ktRolster on Thursday April 21, 2016 @12:11PM (#11543228)
liberal democracy requires liberal elites to be present and not vastly outnumbered.

If the elites are not vastly outnumbered, they kind of aren't elite anymore, they're just normal people.

Re:The $2 Trillion Project to Get Saudi Arabia’s Economy Off... by klibertp on Thursday April 21, 2016 @12:46PM (#11543506)
I mean liberal elites vs. conservative elites, not elites vs normal people, obviously :)
Re:The $2 Trillion Project to Get Saudi Arabia’s Economy Off... by mercurial on Thursday April 21, 2016 @12:19PM (#11543281)
> Does it occur to you that the problem here is that Western-exported democracies aren't democracies, but instead puppet states?

I think the relationship between the West and western-supported regimes is a lot more complicated.

Re:The $2 Trillion Project to Get Saudi Arabia’s Economy Off... by astazangasta on Thursday April 21, 2016 @10:46AM (#11542518)
I question your implicit presumption that democracy has to be western-exported, and that the Saudi government must be toppled by outsiders to change (although I am doubtful of internal forces yielding any such change any time soon).
Re:The $2 Trillion Project to Get Saudi Arabia’s Economy Off... by alanwatts on Thursday April 21, 2016 @09:33AM (#11541949)
>Western-exported democracy

By democracy, you mean dictatorship, right? The Shah and Saddam were both supported by Western oil, industrial, and finance interests and were hardly "democratic".