This. This. This. So many people also lack fundamental skills that you learn formally, with structure, in a formal education system. I would also argue that the learning process in school helps you develop your process for learning later on, which you need to be good at to survive.

>I would also argue that the learning process in school helps you develop your process for learning later on, which you need to be good at to survive.

I couldn't disagree more with this. The way school taught me to learn was one of the most egregious things I've ever had to unlearn. You are taught to remember facts instead of exploring concepts.

"If you really can't see the value in a scientific degree, I think you either didn't work hard enough, pay attention, or go to the right institution." from another comment would apply here. I am learning so much better than I ever could from hacking together solutions from tutorials, reference docs, and examples. At least for me, this is how I learn.

This was the opposite of my experience. Every new class I took offered that professor's way to learn. Every professor had something new to offer me. Some were 'aiight' but some were tremendous new options I've added to my toolkit for learning new things.

You could argue that or you could argue that to truly do well in uni you need to practice the skill of self-learning.

You can learn to self-learn independently. Many who do have made great contributions to many fields. Have a look at the list of autodidacts from history - within our lifetimes even.

Also if you get the travel bug, it's a requirement by many governments if you want to work in another country ever in your life: a degree is pretty-much mandatory for obtaining a "skilled laborer" type visa.

Heck, I even did english teaching in Japan and THAT needed a degree (in ANYTHING)!

The only western country where a degree seems to be an obstacle for getting a work visa as a Software Engineer has been the USA. Unfortunately, I wouldn't really bother getting a visa to anywhere else, so it does kind of come back to bite me at times.

To get a highly skilled visa in the EU you need a formal degree.

Blech. "Do your time" is right.

Just about every recent college grad I talk to complains about how miserable their student loans are making them. Things like, "I would leave this job and do something more interesting if I didn't have student loans."

If education was cheaper and didn't cause that misery, I'd be a much bigger fan of it. But it's not, so now all but the richest and most talented hate it.

The problem with these sorts of discussions is that everyone seems to apply their engineering mindset to everyone else's. You may be smart and successful, but those who aren't will end up with student loans and very little to show for it. All because everyone in every inch of their lives told them to go. As engineers, we need to consider them, too.

I'm also in a country with much cheaper universities and interest free student loans. But I got a degree and it opened a new world for me, I couldn't recommend it more. That said an engineering degree is far more valuable than some of the other degrees out there.

Ah! Fair enough. I'm mostly aiming my aggression towards US schools.

This all comes down to marketing. If you don't have a degree but can market your skills and have a portfolio to show that you know your stuff then getting a job is not an issue. If you can't market yourself then going through an established system that more or less holds your hand through the process is probably ideal.

If only time was the only thing lost by going through the system. The cost of college was the biggest reason why I personally did not go to school. The cost of not only having to pay back loans, but also the loss of 4+ years of savings and investments. My brothers have both completed degrees; yet I currently make more, have much more in savings, have none of the debt, and have been living independently for longer.

However, I would certainly agree that not having a degree means you have to work much harder to find opportunities and prove yourself. Degrees certainly open doors more easily, but that doesn't mean you can't lock pick them given enough time.