News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:The Obama Administration Has Embraced Legal Theories Broa... by rayiner on Thursday April 07, 2016 @05:51PM (#11450998)
It's not clear to me that narrow interpretations of the 4th amendment are more faithful to the Constitution than broad ones. It's true that the 4th amendment was put in the Constitution to provide a protection against warrantless searches of peoples' homes. At the same time, one of the motivating reasons for creating the Constitution as a whole was to create a powerful executive with broad authority to react to military threats, both external and internal. Why is it more faithful to the Constitution to give more weight to the 4th amendment and less weight to the President's broad powers as to national security?

The very first Congress provided for warrantless searches of goods entering and leaving the ports of the United States. Why does it offend the Constitution to interpret the border as being the line where the domestic concerns of the 4th amendment give way to the foreign powers concerns of Article II?

Re:The Obama Administration Has Embraced Legal Theories Broa... by dnautics on Thursday April 07, 2016 @06:08PM (#11451080)
Can you tell me where the constitution gives the president "broad powers as to national security"?
Re:The Obama Administration Has Embraced Legal Theories Broa... by rayiner on Thursday April 07, 2016 @06:56PM (#11451360)
One of the major national security concerns at the time of the founding was domestic insurrection. Several of the Federalist Papers discuss the issue:

Federalist No. 28

> THAT there may happen cases in which the national government may be necessitated to resort to force, cannot be denied.

Federalist No. 29

> THE power of regulating the militia, and of commanding its services in times of insurrection and invasion are natural incidents to the duties of superintending the common defense, and of watching over the internal peace of the Confederacy.

Article II then invests power over the militias, when called into service of the United States, in the President:

> The President shall be commander in chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the militia of the several states, when called into the actual service of the United States;

In other words, the Constitution put the President singularly in charge of what the framers considered the chief tool against domestic insecurity: the nationalized militias.

Re:The Obama Administration Has Embraced Legal Theories Broa... by btilly on Thursday April 07, 2016 @06:46PM (#11451305)
Article 2, section 2 enumerates some broad powers including "Commander in Chief".

Courts have long held that protections are very different at the border. For example a police officer cannot search your car without either your consent or "reasonable suspicion" of wrong-doing. But searches of cars at border crossings are common and legal.

Government policy has long been that the border is a lot bigger than you would expect. Government officers often exceed official policy, and courts have been known to rule in their favor when they do so. See https://www.aclu.org/constitution-100-mile-border-zone for some interesting stuff.

(I have personally been stopped by the border patrol many miles from the border...)

Re:The Obama Administration Has Embraced Legal Theories Broa... by naasking on Friday April 08, 2016 @11:06AM (#11455124)
> At the same time, one of the motivating reasons for creating the Constitution as a whole was to create a powerful executive with broad authority to react to military threats, both external and internal. Why is it more faithful to the Constitution to give more weight to the 4th amendment and less weight to the President's broad powers as to national security?

The justification for warrantless dragnet surveillance is to stop terrorists. The damage terrorists cause is literally negligeable when judged by your argument. If the Constitution was designed to react to military threats, terrorism is not a threat. You're more likely to die slipping in the shower than get killed by a terrorist, which is not the case when at war with another nation.

And this doesn't even touch on whether dragnet surveillance is actually effective (which it can't be, even in principle). As such, the justification for dragnet surveillance is so thin it's comical.

Re:The Obama Administration Has Embraced Legal Theories Broa... by rayiner on Friday April 08, 2016 @01:21PM (#11456270)
People do not think that accidental deaths are comparable to intentional killings. We have elaborate mechanisms to distinguish the two because our fundamental outlook is that one is much more serious than the other.

Besides that, it's almost certainly the case that terrorism has resulted in more deaths than has warrantless dragnet surveillance of cross-border traffic.

Re:The Obama Administration Has Embraced Legal Theories Broa... by naasking on Friday April 08, 2016 @05:11PM (#11458015)
Intention is irrelevant to the argument I presented. The example I presented merely illustrates the level of risk, which is ridiculously low, and certainly doesn't justify military involvement.

> Besides that, it's almost certainly the case that terrorism has resulted in more deaths than has warrantless dragnet surveillance of cross-border traffic.

I don't see how that's relevant one whit. We don't control terrorist actions, we do control our own government's actions, and the latter's actions are restricted by the constitution.

Re:The Obama Administration Has Embraced Legal Theories Broa... by gizmo686 on Thursday April 07, 2016 @05:56PM (#11451025)
It is also worth remembering that home searches were (and are) very annoying. The type of digital surveillance that is the topic of current 4th amendment debates do not directly inconvenience the person being investigated, so this argument does not apply.
Re:The Obama Administration Has Embraced Legal Theories Broa... by soganess on Thursday April 07, 2016 @06:15PM (#11451131)
Inconvenience is hardly the reason for the 4th was put in place, saying that we can moot the whole thing because technology has solved that inconvenient bit seems really disingenuous. The 4th doesn't say "no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause... except in cases of extreme convenience, then we can just play it by ear."

It is a clear as daylight protection of against governmental abuse. And honestly I don't know about you, but I rather have my house searched then my computers any day of the week. One's a place I sleep, the other has deep insights on me as an individual.

Re:The Obama Administration Has Embraced Legal Theories Broa... by gizmo686 on Thursday April 07, 2016 @06:56PM (#11451361)
There are parts of the fourth amendment. The first part is a protection against unreasonable searches and seizures. The second part is a requirement of probable cause for warrants.

The question of the heart of most modern fourth amendment debates is what constitutes a search (and, by extension, requires a warrant). For example, does the government require a warrant to work with the phone company to tap my line [0].

The original push for the 4th amendment protections were abuses of the writ of assistance, wherein British authorities could search any house and seize contraband. [1]. As far as I can tell, the fourth amendment was designed as a protection of property rights and against governmental harassment. I have not seen any evidence that it was written with privacy rights in mind.

In Katz v United States [2] Justice Stewart, in the majority opinion, wrote:

the Fourth Amendment cannot be translated into a general constitutional "right to privacy." That Amendment protects individual privacy against certain kinds of governmental intrusion, but its protections go further, and often have nothing to do with privacy at all. [n4] Other provisions of the Constitution protect personal privacy from other forms of governmental invasion. [n5] But the protection of a person's general right to privacy -- his right to be let alone by other people [n6] -- is, like the [p351] protection of his property and of his very life, left largely to the law of the individual States.

[0] Or rather, does the fourth amendment require the government to get a warrant. [1] Yes, this process was highly suspectable to abuse. The most relevant modern analogy would be civil forfeiture. [2] https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/389/347#writin...

Re:The Obama Administration Has Embraced Legal Theories Broa... by dnautics on Thursday April 07, 2016 @06:11PM (#11451100)
I think part of what made home searches annoying in the colonial era was that they were disproportionately applied to the political opponents of the colonialist status quo. We see those concerns reappear in the modern day in the form of, e.g. loveint, and presumably other pernicious politically motivated investigations. The federal code is so broad as to be able to be used to harass anyone for a legion of infractions at any given moment, so it is a reasonable threat.
Re:The Obama Administration Has Embraced Legal Theories Broa... by awinter-py on Thursday April 07, 2016 @09:21PM (#11451970)
never heard of LOVEINT before! awesome