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Re:Developers don't build cheaper housing because we make it... by wrong_variable on Sunday April 03, 2016 @09:01PM (#11418746)
This is one of the reasons why I have zero interest in wasting my hard earned money propping up the insane housing bubble in western cities.

Building a simple house is a 5000 year old technology.

I know that since we brought a small piece of land outside the city - brought the raw material and paid some local laborer to help us put our family home together.

It cost us a grand total of 10,000 dollars. The only difference was - we did it in india where there are no nonsense housing regulation.

Getting internet was supposed to be hard, but we were allowed to just use the telephone pole to get copper internet ( instead of fibre ).

From a business perspective - no wonder it temping to offshore - when putting a roof over your head eats so much into your income.

Re:Developers don't build cheaper housing because we make it... by 3pt14159 on Sunday April 03, 2016 @10:28PM (#11419014)
I used to be a structural engineer, and I can tell you _exactly_ what you're giving up if you're interested. The cost difference isn't $10k vs $700k because of building materials. The cost difference is $5k (land) + $5k (construction) vs $600k (land) vs $100k (construction).

What I've seen is that most people in the West end up thinking that that $95k difference is worth it.

Let me start with a true story of what happened to me the first time I represented myself in court back around 2005. Someone had moved my motorbike to make a bit more room to park their stupid oversized Hummer. My bike was now just past the legal line so I got a $45 ticket. Outraged I vowed to bring this to court. In the pre-meeting with the prosecutor the cop didn't even remember the location of the motorcycle, let alone what was around, whereas I had drawings and the license plate number of the Hummer owner.

The prosecutor said that if I plead guilty with an explanation that they would drop the charges. So that is what we did. Right afterwards I got a $40 "courtroom fee" because I'd plead guilty. That's when I learned the adage "A man who is his own lawyer has a fool for a client".

5000 years ago children died because they crawled between the banister railings. Our building code stops that oversight. 5000 years ago houses collapsed during hurricanes. Our building codes severely reduced that. I could go on and on.

The main issue isn't the building code. The issue is that it is difficult in modern cities to get the local population to agree to expanding the housing stock with taller buildings. It ruins views, it's noisy, excess supply collapses housing prices. It changes the city's charm and culture. So they elect people that slow it down.

Re:Developers don't build cheaper housing because we make it... by hinkley on Monday April 04, 2016 @01:04AM (#11419548)
The Japanese have been dealing with earthquakes for eons and the housing fashion from the previous era could still crush you like a bug if the pillars give out (those tile roofs are -heavy-).

I think there's a quite different lesson in these codes. What's the difference between software developers that don't have a Code and electricians or plumbers who do? Not all that much. Except that we get to spend a lot of time trying to talk people out of doing stuff using reason and logic. People who got the job they did instead of your job because they weren't quite so good at reason and logic.

Pull the sort of things we deal with every day on an electrician? Fuck you, I'm not doing that, it's not to code. Now cough up the time and materials to do it right, or we're done here. Don't like it? The next guy you call is going to tell you the exact same thing. Have a nice day.

Re:Developers don't build cheaper housing because we make it... by marcus_holmes on Monday April 04, 2016 @05:10AM (#11420375)
Yeah I'd love to have a Code I could point to.

"you might think all those tests are a waste of everyone's time and your money, but that's the Code so we gotta do them"

There'd be less programs written, and those programs would be more expensive. But we might finally start making a dent in the "80% of software projects fail" statistic that hasn't changed since the 60's.

Re:Developers don't build cheaper housing because we make it... by 3pt14159 on Monday April 04, 2016 @02:04AM (#11419702)
Careful with things like survivorship bias. Even as recently as the mid 1800s there was an earthquake that took out ton of buildings, temples, and dams in Nagano, Japan (Google Zenkōji earthquake).

But I do understand and partially agree with your primary point.

Re:Developers don't build cheaper housing because we make it... by mikekchar on Monday April 04, 2016 @02:23AM (#11419757)
I'm not sure I understand what the parent's point was, however I thought it would be interesting to point out that there are almost no old buildings in Japan. Especially for houses, you would be really hard pressed to find more than a handful of inhabited houses that are more than 30 years old in any given city. The Japanese fashion is to knock down the old house and build a new one in it's place. There is virtually no market for old houses (and, in fact, you will often get less money trying to sell land with a house on it than if you demolish the house yourself).

Of course there are lots of old temples and shrines but even those have often had every single piece replaced. I was really surprised a couple of years ago when one of the local shrines tore down their building completely and rebuilt it exactly the same!

Whether this has to do with earthquakes or not, I'm not entirely sure. My wife and I have been thinking of buying a house and I keep having to remind myself that I will lose money if I ultimately sell. Our current plan is to wait until we're a bit older and then buy a not-too-old used house at a discount ;-)

Re:Developers don't build cheaper housing because we make it... by rangibaby on Monday April 04, 2016 @03:06AM (#11419925)
What part of Japan do you live in? At least in Nagoya there is at least one "Showa" house per block. They are knocked down when their inhabitants (generally older people) stop living in them, but it's not hard to find them.

It was known that older houses were dangerous in earthquakes (I believe the safer building code dates from the 80s), but no one was really worried about it until the Kobe earthquake where most damage was borne by older buildings.

Re:Developers don't build cheaper housing because we make it... by mikekchar on Monday April 04, 2016 @03:40AM (#11420072)
I'm in Shizuoka. Possibly they are more sensitive due to overdue Tokai earthquake. I was actually living in one of the oldest buildings in my town and it was probably 50 years old. It was demolished 2 years ago.
Re:Developers don't build cheaper housing because we make it... by hinkley on Monday April 04, 2016 @11:11AM (#11422457)
From what I understand, the central pillar supporting many of those temples is reaching end of life, after 5-900 years depending on conditions. So you have to disassemble it to rebuild due to the heavy but rational reliance on the strength of the old growth timbers.
Re:Developers don't build cheaper housing because we make it... by douche on Monday April 04, 2016 @07:16AM (#11420912)
Damn near the whole country was burned flat in 44/45, so there's that...
Re:Developers don't build cheaper housing because we make it... by hinkley on Monday April 04, 2016 @11:08AM (#11422422)
I only meant that even among people who know how to build crazy well, accidents still happen. But that doesn't negate the need for standards of construction.
Re:Developers don't build cheaper housing because we make it... by rangibaby on Monday April 04, 2016 @03:08AM (#11419937)
The heavy tile roofs were for protection from typhoons, which are much more common than "oh fuck"-level earthquakes.
Re:Developers don't build cheaper housing because we make it... by hinkley on Monday April 04, 2016 @11:12AM (#11422473)
Oh! That makes sense now. Thanks.
Re:Developers don't build cheaper housing because we make it... by hacknat on Monday April 04, 2016 @02:19AM (#11419745)
Charming? Drive through any single family detached neighborhood in America during the summer and count how many people are actually enjoying their yards.

Where you see charm some of us see waste. Grass is ugly and so are single detached family homes. Row houses look nice, so do skyscrapers. Inventing a simulacrum for the country estate and calling it a "dream" is a bad joke I'd like everyone to start laughing at.

This is it. This is the mother of all bad policies in the USA! From keeping African Americans out of our neighborhoods via red lining, to increased police presence, to one generation's artificial chokehold on the housing stock. Americans should feel nothing but disgust for most of our housing policy, and single family homes should be derided as one of single worst allocation of resources the American public makes. People defend these things as lifestyle choices, and almost never live into the carrying capacity of the asset they buy. It is one lifestyle choice I feel comfortable judging.

Just so no one thinks I don't have any skin in the game I do have a child.

Re:Developers don't build cheaper housing because we make it... by mattmanser on Monday April 04, 2016 @05:59AM (#11420571)
You're a delusion fool if you think row houses are nice, especially as the aesthetic of the house is the least important part of living in it.

I live in the UK where they are common, they're a nightmare to live in, you can hear people arguing or babies screaming 4 houses down.

A lot of houses are detached but very close to each other or semi-detached (linked to one other house). Both are far more pleasant to live in than row houses or sky scrapers.

Re:Developers don't build cheaper housing because we make it... by greggman on Monday April 04, 2016 @03:16AM (#11419979)
My father built our 20x30ft family room add on. He built it to be sound proof enough that he could practice his drumming and not annoy the neighbors. I don't think he'd be able to do that in most apartments
Re:Developers don't build cheaper housing because we make it... by nickpsecurity on Monday April 04, 2016 @02:46AM (#11419834)
I live in one of those areas. I mock their attachment to yards. I do love that we have plenty of space that's ours under our rules. That's front for public stuff, back for semi-private, an insulated house for noise reduction (love that), and so on. As often is with suburbs, it's close enough to big city to get its benefits without its problems. It's all that for under a grand a month.

Is all that normal for the big cities with dense, multi-story housing?

Re:Developers don't build cheaper housing because we make it... by diskcat on Monday April 04, 2016 @06:57AM (#11420811)
>Americans should feel nothing but disgust for most of our housing policy, and single family homes should be derided as one of single worst allocation of resources the American public makes.

In your opinion.

Some people think driving cars are bad. Some people think eating meat is bad. Some people think space heating is a waste of electricity.

Everybody seems to think their particular way of living is perfect and everybody else is either too wasteful or doesn't know how to live.

Your argument really is just "this is my subjective opinion of how to live and people who disagree are wrong".

Re:Developers don't build cheaper housing because we make it... by stegosaurus on Sunday April 03, 2016 @10:47PM (#11419091)
The issue is that taking away that choice is damaging to many people. I think that the statement "most people in the West agree" glosses over an important detail - perhaps most people who have the money agree, and the others are forced to go along with it.

I would far rather have a home that has 'risky banister railings' if that meant I could actually afford it.

Mental health is as important as physical health, if not moreso - what's worse, risk of eviction, or having to pay attention near the stairwell? I get that this is an isolated example, but I'd take worse insulation, no solar, worse security, everything, if it meant I could get a home and slowly improve it myself with time.

If that means I have to live rurally - so be it - but as far as I can tell that means living outside of the country I was born in (UK), which is quite sad.

Re:Developers don't build cheaper housing because we make it... by 3pt14159 on Sunday April 03, 2016 @11:43PM (#11419271)
I have broadly libertarian leanings too. But this isn't just about _you_. This is about your guests, your children, the person that buys your house next, the person that lives next door (in the event of a fire). I agree that the housing situation sucks right now, but the solution is to embrace smaller residences and lots of tallish buildings. I'm currently vacationing in Vietnam. It's a terrible annoyance dealing with exposed wires and crappy houses. Someone didn't have money for a drain, so they threw their (still very hot) excess soup from their pot out the window and it got all over me.
Re:Developers don't build cheaper housing because we make it... by eggy on Monday April 04, 2016 @02:11AM (#11419725)
I think you should be able to build it the way you want, and if you wish to rent it, or sell it, then it has to brought up to standards. I bought a house with deck railings that were far apart even though I had a 3 month old baby. We kept the door to the deck locked, and I installed railings the following Spring. I grew up in Brooklyn, but I now live in rural East Java, Indonesia. Yep, life is very different, but I like it. You adapt. Some people choose not to, and that is their perogative. I think rent control is a big issue in the sense that it allows people who can truly afford a higher rent, a nice lifestyle. A friend lived in TriBeca NYC, paying $600 per month for a > 2000 sq. ft. loft in an area of million dollar lofts. She could afford it, or to move to Brooklyn at the time, but did not want to leave the luxury afforded to her by rent control. It's not old people eating cat food out of cans in unheated apartments as much as people protray it. I lived in Chelsea, NYC in the late 1990s. I paid a fair rent, a lot of older people paid rent control, or their grandkids who lived there while they lived elsewhere in the suburbs. I spoke to the owner of the building, who showed me the boiler that was constantly in need of repair. He said he wanted to buy a new one, but 90% of the tenants were paying around $400 per month rent. The boiler installed was over $100K. I like to see both sides. My belief is we should do away with rent control, let the market stabilize, build affordable housing up to code, and ride the wave until it becomes a better situation. Subsidies, and delaying the solution is only creating more disparity.
Re:Developers don't build cheaper housing because we make it... by diskcat on Monday April 04, 2016 @07:00AM (#11420829)
>This is about your guests,

who consented to the conditions of your house when entering. If he is not sure he ought to hire a civil engineer to inspect and verify the safety status of the house or ask the host to do it.

>your children,

who is your ward and is subjected to the decisions of its parent with regards to all of life choices

>the person that buys your house next,

ditto the guest situation except for buying

>the person that lives next door

this is the only legitimate case for regulation, to protect the public and/or third party.

>so they threw their (still very hot) excess soup from their pot out the window and it got all over me.

This is not a problem of housing but of manners. You can get rid of hot soup without infringing of other people's ability to walk around the public area and not be wet.

Re:Developers don't build cheaper housing because we make it... by stegosaurus on Sunday April 03, 2016 @11:51PM (#11419295)
I don't have children. I can't afford them.

I think the solution is to move away from cities. I'm planning to do so. I'm just going to be sad if it means leaving my country because you don't want me anywhere near you, even if it means I'm on the horizon from your window.

Re:Developers don't build cheaper housing because we make it... by pjc50 on Monday April 04, 2016 @09:17AM (#11421612)
It really is mostly about the land value, with a bit of local planning opposition. Allowing people to build un-code houses would save a surprisingly small amount of money in the short term at the cost of all sorts of long-term problems.

In the UK if you want a house but are completely agnostic about where, there's Stoke-on-Trent; the council were selling houses for £1 on the condition that the new owner renovated them to code. Otherwise, rural living in Scotland is also quite cheap.

Re:Developers don't build cheaper housing because we make it... by arethuza on Monday April 04, 2016 @05:40AM (#11420483)
What makes you think you can't live rurally in the UK?
Re:Developers don't build cheaper housing because we make it... by ChrisDutrow on Monday April 04, 2016 @02:31AM (#11419781)
Isn't the problem the cost of the land? 100k for a house that's up to code financed over 30 years should be reasonably affordable?
Re:Developers don't build cheaper housing because we make it... by Rylinks on Sunday April 03, 2016 @11:46PM (#11419283)
>excess supply collapses housing prices

If this motivation was held by anyone other than random individuals and families, it would be regarded with scorn.

Re:Developers don't build cheaper housing because we make it... by hacknat on Monday April 04, 2016 @02:06AM (#11419709)
Hear, hear! It wouldn't be America if we didn't vote to make the government prop up our poor investment decisions.
Re:Developers don't build cheaper housing because we make it... by hkmurakami on Monday April 04, 2016 @01:53AM (#11419682)
Yes. Because it is effectively a cartel.

"Home is where the Cartel is"

http://www.interfluidity.com/v2/6287.html

Re:Developers don't build cheaper housing because we make it... by DanielBMarkham on Monday April 04, 2016 @05:09AM (#11420370)
"...5000 years ago children died because they crawled between the banister railings. Our building code stops that oversight. 5000 years ago houses collapsed during hurricanes. Our building codes severely reduced that. I could go on and on..."

Interestingly, the same thing happens in large software development shops. Somebody breaks production by doing X. So now there's a process in place never to do X (Even when it might make sense). Somebody forgets Y. So now everybody has to do Y. And so on.

Overall, over time it's much easier to take out the hammer and create one-size-fits-all answers to every catastrophe that occurs. Repeat and rinse this process over several years, and you've got a software shop that's running ten times slower than everybody else.

Re:Developers don't build cheaper housing because we make it... by jeremysmyth on Thursday April 07, 2016 @06:10AM (#11446116)
Overall, over time it's much easier to take out the hammer and create one-size-fits-all answers to every catastrophe that occurs. Repeat and rinse this process over several years, and you've got a software shop that's running ten times slower than everybody else.

...and not killing anyone.

"People have to channel their creativity into changing the process," says Keller, "not changing the software."

"Most people choose to spend their money at the wrong end of the process," says Munson. "In the modern software environment, 80% of the cost of the software is spent after the software is written the first time — they don't get it right the first time, so they spend time flogging it. In shuttle, they do it right the first time."

"The most important things the shuttle group does — carefully planning the software in advance, writing no code until the design is complete, making no changes without supporting blueprints, keeping a completely accurate record of the code — are not expensive. The process isn't even rocket science. Its standard practice in almost every engineering discipline except software engineering."

http://www.fastcompany.com/28121/they-write-right-stuff

Re:Developers don't build cheaper housing because we make it... by spacecowboy_lon on Monday April 04, 2016 @05:00AM (#11420336)
Quite so Even such a small thing as the rake on stairs can make a difference to accidents an deaths from falls.
Re:Developers don't build cheaper housing because we make it... by thaumasiotes on Monday April 04, 2016 @05:12AM (#11420387)
> 5000 years ago children died because they crawled between the banister railings.

Actually, it's very difficult to get babies to crawl into empty space, or even onto a glass surface that looks like empty space.

Re:Developers don't build cheaper housing because we make it... by wrong_variable on Sunday April 03, 2016 @11:24PM (#11419227)
I agree about all the things about safety.

However, for a isolated suburban house - it made little sense to put all that measures you are talking about. If we were living in a major city - it would make more sense to add some of those things.

4 walls and a roof should not make someone bankrupt.

Re:Developers don't build cheaper housing because we make it... by vacri on Monday April 04, 2016 @12:16AM (#11419376)
Most of the cost of housing is not construction, but land costs. Construction costs could be $0, and it wouldn't affect affordability all that much in currently expensive areas.
Re:Developers don't build cheaper housing because we make it... by api on Sunday April 03, 2016 @11:44PM (#11419276)
The Western practice of using a house as an investment vehicle and a bank account is partly to blame. Once a person buys a home they instantly become a NIMBY as they are now leveraged into a scarce asset and have a vested interest in keeping it scarce.
Re:Developers don't build cheaper housing because we make it... by KannO on Sunday April 03, 2016 @09:44PM (#11418883)
Earthquake/fire/electrical regulations might not seem valuable until your entire house/city is in ruins.
Re:Developers don't build cheaper housing because we make it... by x5n1 on Sunday April 03, 2016 @10:10PM (#11418966)
When it costs 10,000 to replace, maybe you don't care that much.
Re:Developers don't build cheaper housing because we make it... by thedufer on Sunday April 03, 2016 @10:23PM (#11419002)
You definitely don't care when you're dead. In that split second before the disaster, maybe the point of silly regulations like not collapsing at the first hint of an earthquake or not going up in flames in seconds will become clear.
Re:Developers don't build cheaper housing because we make it... by x5n1 on Sunday April 03, 2016 @10:59PM (#11419142)
Choose your level of risk. I am sure if you want all those features, you can make the determination yourself. If you want to live dangerously, then live dangerously. I personally support this outlook. Better have cheap housing with risk than rent.
Re:Developers don't build cheaper housing because we make it... by slackstation on Sunday April 03, 2016 @11:41PM (#11419265)
If you are arguing from the perspective of low income people, most of whom rent, they aren't looking in detail at how the building was built, just the price.

In other words, in this future poor neighbourhoods would collapse like 3rd world countries while rich neighbourhoods would get hairline cracks in the drywall.

Re:Developers don't build cheaper housing because we make it... by AnthonyMouse on Monday April 04, 2016 @01:40AM (#11419650)
They had this problem in cases of activists going after slumlords that weren't maintaining their buildings. The problem was, in order to get tenants to rent a building in that state, the slumlords had to discount the rent by pretty much exactly the cost of the repairs not made. Paying for the repairs would have required (and allowed) rents to be increased to more than the existing tenants were able to pay.

So every time the activists forced a slumlord to bring their building to code, fixing it allowed them to increase the rent and the people the activists were trying to help were forced to move out because they could no longer afford it.

But at least they made it less likely that the whole city would catch on fire.

Re:Developers don't build cheaper housing because we make it... by nickpsecurity on Monday April 04, 2016 @02:32AM (#11419782)
That's interesting. You have a link for that?
Re:Developers don't build cheaper housing because we make it... by badsock on Sunday April 03, 2016 @11:37PM (#11419252)
You're choosing your neighbour's level of risk too, though. Even a house built to regs has a hard time staying not on fire when the one right beside it is going up like a pile of tinder.
Re:Developers don't build cheaper housing because we make it... by burfog on Monday April 04, 2016 @04:17PM (#11425183)
If you build for low long-term cost, you're not using wood anyway because of fungus and termites. You're using cementboard, concrete blocks, stucco, and similar. That won't burn. The roof can be corrugated metal.
Re:Developers don't build cheaper housing because we make it... by kabdib on Monday April 04, 2016 @12:50AM (#11419502)
So you'll be perfectly understanding when, having adopted your preferred level of risk, people don't send in crews to help you. That we'll just bring in bulldozers and start over.

Maybe that lot on the slope of the volcano wasn't such a great idea after all?

Re:Developers don't build cheaper housing because we make it... by nisse72 on Monday April 04, 2016 @06:26AM (#11420707)
> Maybe that lot on the slope of the volcano wasn't such a great idea after all?

Yeah, tell that to about half the population of New Zealand. Volcano or fault line, take your pick.

Re:Developers don't build cheaper housing because we make it... by kabdib on Monday April 04, 2016 @02:47PM (#11424318)
(writing this from vacation in Hawaii): I have the sense that the rest of the world will help out if you Kiwi's get into trouble. Ditto if the Pacific Northwest takes a hit.

It wasn't a great point. We live where we live, for the most part. There are few places free of potential natural disasters. (The scope of the PNW quakes were only realized in the last 20 years or so...).

But it's colossally stupid to build substandard housing in such an area, to the point where it's a net win for society to enforce some minimum quality.

Fires, for instance, are not the Huge Fucking Deal they were a hundred years ago. We have better fire-fighting equipment, but that's kind of the booby prize. Better to make things fire-resistant, and to not cause fires to begin with.

Re:Developers don't build cheaper housing because we make it... by thedufer on Tuesday April 05, 2016 @07:38PM (#11435471)
Please keep your beliefs in your world, where your decisions apparently don't have consequences for others. Around here, I like to think that society benefits every time a building that's up to code fails to fall on a passersby, or fails to set a neighboring building on fire because it burns slowly and coolly enough to be put out first.
Re:Developers don't build cheaper housing because we make it... by mtviewdave on Sunday April 03, 2016 @11:21PM (#11419216)
After 1906 or so, people in San Francisco discovered that they cared very much.
Re:Developers don't build cheaper housing because we make it... by rtpg on Sunday April 03, 2016 @09:13PM (#11418790)
Super pedantic but some niceties (good insulation! Double paned windows) are less than 5000 years old ;)
Re:Developers don't build cheaper housing because we make it... by jacalata on Sunday April 03, 2016 @09:34PM (#11418853)
Really, you went with insulation rather than indoor plumbing and electricity? :)
Re:Developers don't build cheaper housing because we make it... by Pxtl on Sunday April 03, 2016 @09:42PM (#11418876)
I'm a Canadian and my first thought was insulation, too. Also heat. Natural gas piping isn't something you'd want to DIY.
Re:Developers don't build cheaper housing because we make it... by msandford on Sunday April 03, 2016 @09:54PM (#11418911)
Natural gas piping is done at such low pressures in residential environments that it's basically a joke. I think it's about 0.5psi (or 14" of water column) which in the grand scheme of pressures is very low. People can generate greater pressures with their lungs.

http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?1587361-What-is-typi...

http://www.personal.psu.edu/ref7/apparatus/2003%20competitio...

EDIT: I'm not saying that one should do their own natural gas piping as in many places it's technically illegal unless you're a licensed plumber. But it's certainly not rocket science. The only reason it's "harder" than plumbing compressed air is that if compressed air leaks a tad, it's no big deal. You have to get rather tight on gas piping because of the consequences of a leak, not because it's so difficult to get it tight.

Re:Developers don't build cheaper housing because we make it... by infinite8s on Sunday April 03, 2016 @10:08PM (#11418955)
I think that was the GP's objection to DIY. Not the actual installation process, but long term leakage issues if you do it incorrectly.
Re:Developers don't build cheaper housing because we make it... by protomyth on Sunday April 03, 2016 @10:31PM (#11419028)
In Most of Canada and a lot of northern states, if you have no insulation then you soon won't have indoor plumbing, but you'll have a nice ice skating rink in your house.
Re:Developers don't build cheaper housing because we make it... by troels on Monday April 04, 2016 @04:09AM (#11420173)
In all fairness - People have been building houses in similar climates for 5000 years, and while they didn't have indoor plumbing, they surely built their houses to some standard of insulation.
Re:Developers don't build cheaper housing because we make it... by protomyth on Monday April 04, 2016 @10:38AM (#11422182)
I was reaffirming the reasoning behind rtpg and Pxtl's prioritizing insulation over indoor plumbing and further explaining why it is a necessary pre-condition to indoor plumbing.
Re:Developers don't build cheaper housing because we make it... by pavel_lishin on Monday April 04, 2016 @04:20PM (#11425213)
I spent my summers in rural Russia, occasionally in the winter. I'll take the insulation over the indoor plumbing and the electricity, and trust me, so would you if that was the binary choice.
Re:Developers don't build cheaper housing because we make it... by spacecowboy_lon on Monday April 04, 2016 @04:58AM (#11420332)
But your not comparing like for like and building codes are there for a reason.

Also in the west you don't have to worry about having your home expropriated by "gangsters" - which happened to one of my coworkers family back home.

Re:Developers don't build cheaper housing because we make it... by mdpopescu on Monday April 04, 2016 @06:16AM (#11420662)
Re:Developers don't build cheaper housing because we make it... by superuser2 on Sunday April 03, 2016 @09:06PM (#11418763)
It should converge on eating about the same percentage of your income - people in lower cost of living areas are typically paid less. Markets remove arbitrage opportunities eventually.