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Re:U.S. Drops California Case Against Apple After Accessing ... by Aleman360 on Monday March 28, 2016 @07:14PM (#11378231)
The US isn't based on majority rule. No one wants that.
Re:U.S. Drops California Case Against Apple After Accessing ... by KerryJones on Monday March 28, 2016 @07:23PM (#11378282)
Exactly -- because the US isn't a democracy (majority rule), it's a democratic republic.
Re:U.S. Drops California Case Against Apple After Accessing ... by dpark on Monday March 28, 2016 @07:36PM (#11378377)
It's not a direct democracy. That didn't mean it's not a democracy.

If you redefine democracy to be the narrowest possible interpretation, you eliminate every government in the world. You also make the word pretty much useless.

Re:U.S. Drops California Case Against Apple After Accessing ... by jMyles on Monday March 28, 2016 @07:51PM (#11378466)
It might be fair, though, to exclude governments whose founding documents and the position papers written to advance them expressly eschew and prohibit democratic rule, in favor of a limited and enumerated republic.

There are some governments who claim authority to take any action authorized by the democratic process. The US government is not among them. Ergo, it is not properly classified as a "democracy."

Re:U.S. Drops California Case Against Apple After Accessing ... by Thrymr on Monday March 28, 2016 @09:04PM (#11378824)
You're defining "democracy" more narrowly than is reasonable. The 2nd definition at Merriam-Webster, for example [0], is "a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections". "Republic" and "democracy" are not mutually exclusive.

[0] http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/democracy

Re:U.S. Drops California Case Against Apple After Accessing ... by jMyles on Monday March 28, 2016 @09:10PM (#11378846)
Reducing the discussion to a dictionary definition is emblematic of many of the problems in today's political discourse. This pithy, literal definition of a term is not relevant, especially when that same term, in the same context, is discussed at length, in light of various philosophies on the matter, in the Federalist Papers.

I don't think there's a better source of information about whether the government of the united States of America is a democracy than the position papers written to advance the four corners of its founding instruments, and they deliver an unambiguous "no."

Let's say, for a a moment, that your definition, which seems to conflate these two distinguishable scenarios (one in which a government's power is strictly limited and enumerated, and another in which that power extends to the bounds of whatever a voting majority or their representatives might desire), is a reasonable one.

How, then, do you discuss this distinction?

...and even by your definition, while an individual state might quality, the government of the USA does not: "supreme power" is wholly unavailable through the US government, at least in its legitimate purview (of course it exceeds this boundary frequently and flagrantly). It has dominion only over the specific areas outlined in the constitution; those not mentioned are reserved for the states or the people.

Re:U.S. Drops California Case Against Apple After Accessing ... by dpark on Monday March 28, 2016 @10:46PM (#11379160)
> I don't think there's a better source of information about whether the government of the united States of America is a democracy than the position papers written to advance the four corners of its founding instruments, and they deliver an unambiguous "no."

I'm not a constitutional scholar, so forgive me. What exactly do you think unambiguously demonstrates that the United States is not a democracy?

> ...and even by your definition, while an individual state might quality, the government of the USA does not: "supreme power" is wholly unavailable through the US government, at least in its legitimate purview (of course it exceeds this boundary frequently and flagrantly)

I feel like the definition addressed this. (In fact, given that this is Webster's, I'd expect that the definition was written to specifically include the United States government.) The definition says "the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly". The fact that the Constitution reserves nonenumerated powers for "the states or the people" indicates a recognition that the power is vested in the people. The "legitimate purview", as you put it, consists of powers granted by the people who hold "supreme power".

Re:U.S. Drops California Case Against Apple After Accessing ... by mattlutze on Tuesday March 29, 2016 @12:46AM (#11379536)
Please note, "the United States" isn't just the federal government, but the federal government as well as the governments of the 50 federated states of the union (and tributaries/territories).
Re:U.S. Drops California Case Against Apple After Accessing ... by EdHominem on Tuesday March 29, 2016 @12:42PM (#11382754)
> in which the supreme power is vested in the people

We don't have that. We get to pick from a closed set of possible representatives and they aren't bound to follow our desires. (Or even check...)

It's not the indirection of the representative, it's that they aren't required to even try to represent. Your vote in the USA essentially elects a mini-tyrant who theoretically wants to be elected again so much that they'll pander to you in exchange for that but only so far as they can use you. As soon as they'll get enough money by selling you out to compensate for your lost vote, they will.

And worse, this is how it's supposed to work.

Re:U.S. Drops California Case Against Apple After Accessing ... by ArkyBeagle on Monday March 28, 2016 @09:52PM (#11378988)
Democracy is a term which refers to both republics and plebiscites. The word you are looking for is "plebescite". Plebescite is widely believed to have been problematic in ancient Greece, which is why it's relatively rare.
Re:U.S. Drops California Case Against Apple After Accessing ... by EdHominem on Tuesday March 29, 2016 @12:34PM (#11382703)
Yes, though you must consider that if your representative isn't bound to vote to represent you (even in general) the word is pretty watered down already.
Re:U.S. Drops California Case Against Apple After Accessing ... by tjgq on Monday March 28, 2016 @07:32PM (#11378344)
Is that a distinction worth making? By that standard, how many countries in the world are actually democracies?
Re:U.S. Drops California Case Against Apple After Accessing ... by studentrob on Monday March 28, 2016 @07:50PM (#11378460)
Absolutely it is. Google the difference. A democratic republic ultimately derives power from the people. There are more checks and balances in place in America than one person one vote. More info [1]

[1] http://www.thisnation.com/question/011.html

Re:U.S. Drops California Case Against Apple After Accessing ... by mtgx on Monday March 28, 2016 @07:19PM (#11378256)
No, but I think Americans want a semblance of representation. When The People have close to 0% sway in Congress' opinions on bills, and corporations have like 70%, I'd say that's a pretty big freaking deal, no?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tu32CCA_Ig

Every time there's an argument about wanting more democracy in the US, it seems someone always appears to say "but that's mob rule!". No, nobody wants mob rule. But there's a canyon between what exists now and what a more representative government could look like.

Re:U.S. Drops California Case Against Apple After Accessing ... by panarky on Monday March 28, 2016 @07:34PM (#11378364)
Excellent video, I hadn't seen that.

Predictably, the argument devolves into one about direct democracy vs. representative democracy, and that's really not the issue at all.

The issue is that the current system consistently acts contrary to the will of the people.

To quote the Princeton study from your video:

  The preferences of the average American appear to have only a
  minuscule, near-zero, statistically non-significant impact upon
  public policy.
Re:U.S. Drops California Case Against Apple After Accessing ... by erichocean on Monday March 28, 2016 @08:27PM (#11378643)
> The preferences of the average American appear to have only a minuscule, near-zero, statistically non-significant impact upon public policy.

That's a feature, not a bug.

Re:U.S. Drops California Case Against Apple After Accessing ... by oldmanjay on Monday March 28, 2016 @08:07PM (#11378546)
I'm curious about this capital-P People. Does working for a corporation revoke membership in this club?
Re:U.S. Drops California Case Against Apple After Accessing ... by studentrob on Monday March 28, 2016 @07:31PM (#11378340)
> When The People have close to 0% sway in Congress' opinions on bills, and corporations have like 70%, I'd say that's a pretty big freaking deal, no?

There's plenty of time to undo the actions of the past 10, 20, even 30 years.

If you sit back on your heels, throw your arms up in the air, don't vote and say nothing, then you won't be participating in democracy. But if you do use your voice and vote then at least you can say you tried. Everything won't always go your way and we don't have a perfect system. But given our diverse population it is a pretty good one. I say that while in full agreement that there are a lot of laws that need to be reversed or undone.

You'll never entirely remove money from politics. And, we should keep trying to remove it even though we know we won't end up with a perfect solution. That said, lobbyists aren't inherently evil and many share our viewpoints (for example, the EFF)

Re:U.S. Drops California Case Against Apple After Accessing ... by mdpopescu on Tuesday March 29, 2016 @02:16AM (#11379788)
Personally, I don't believe that "at least you can say you tried" is morally superior to not participating in a rigged game.
Re:U.S. Drops California Case Against Apple After Accessing ... by studentrob on Tuesday March 29, 2016 @04:40AM (#11380245)
I did not say anything about morals. I'm not superior to you. I'm just stating my opinion. Choose to do as you wish. If you choose to not participate in the formation of this government, you are free to continue living in the US or live elsewhere. You could even try to start a revolution though I wouldn't recommend it. It is entirely up to you.
Re:U.S. Drops California Case Against Apple After Accessing ... by panarky on Monday March 28, 2016 @08:17PM (#11378598)
Certainly not! It's much better to be ruled by sociopaths and megalomaniacs.
Re:U.S. Drops California Case Against Apple After Accessing ... by enraged_camel on Monday March 28, 2016 @08:53PM (#11378766)
Versus the stupid and the ignorant?
Re:U.S. Drops California Case Against Apple After Accessing ... by TheOtherHobbes on Tuesday March 29, 2016 @08:01AM (#11380832)
You realise it's not either/or?

The US is a plutocracy. It's in no sense a working democracy. There's a public voting circus every couple of years, but policy - which is the only thing that really matters in politics - is largely defined by Wall St, the Fed, and by mil-ind corporate lobbying groups.

All of the above are politically unaccountable and legally untouchable. See for example the ridiculous excuses made to prevent the passage of:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_Transparency_A...

Re:U.S. Drops California Case Against Apple After Accessing ... by thothamon on Tuesday March 29, 2016 @10:50AM (#11381870)
This sort of thing is said all the time, but we do see significant policy changes based on voting, such as the switch to Barack Obama from George W. Bush. It's not clear to me that the corporations drove that in a major way. Another example is Herbert Hoover to Franklin Roosevelt. I imagine you wouldn't suggest that the corporations wanted the Socialist ideas proposed by Roosevelt.

Just because an election or a vote doesn't go your way, or the government doesn't shift dramatically every election, doesn't mean the nation does not have a working democracy.

Re:U.S. Drops California Case Against Apple After Accessing ... by panarky on Monday March 28, 2016 @09:00PM (#11378798)
Yes! I'd prefer to be governed by ordinary people rather than an intelligent and wealthy adversary intentionally working against my interests.
Re:U.S. Drops California Case Against Apple After Accessing ... by sirclueless on Monday March 28, 2016 @11:03PM (#11379210)
The problem is that "governance by ordinary people" is not really on the table as an option. Governance by popular vote might be, but given how short-sighted and easily swayed the average loosely aware citizen is, the result is more likely to be "governance by demagogues and whoever has the most advertising dollars".