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Re:Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, ... by caf on Thursday March 17, 2016 @08:18PM (#11308819)
Well, if you can draft people to go over to Vietnam and be shot at by the NVA...
Re:Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, ... by pdkl95 on Thursday March 17, 2016 @08:38PM (#11308955)
I just mentioned how this could be interpreted as a draft to my mother who grew up watching the Vietnam draft, and she immediately brought up an interesting question: "Can you be a conscientious objector?"

Given that nobody is being put in a position where they might have to use deadly force, the usual pacifist or religious arguments don't apply. While suspect it would be hard to extend the concept to the orders given to Apple, the fact that the engineers involved would even consider resignation make it clear how strongly they object to the order.

Re:Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, ... by hysan on Thursday March 17, 2016 @10:03PM (#11309333)
> the usual pacifist or religious arguments don't apply

Unless they are atheist/agnostic and claim that this is a core belief for them. Not every atheist/agnostic is outspoken nor do they all share the same beliefs. It would be interesting to force the courts to make a judgement on the differences between the moral tenants atheists/agnostics follow and that of established religions.

Re:Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, ... by BWStearns on Friday March 18, 2016 @04:42AM (#11310580)
>> Not every atheist/agnostic is outspoken nor do they all share the same beliefs

If you only consider the subset of security related/conscious programmers they're fairly outspoken and on these particular issues they're probably more orthodox than comparable religious constituencies are on organized violence for which there have been pacifist exemptions. I'm not familiar with the law regarding conscientious objection (it's late, now I have my tangent reading for tomorrow) but I'd presume the first amendment would require that a secular philosophical objection would have to be as equally valid as a religiously motivated one?

Re:Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, ... by pdkl95 on Friday March 18, 2016 @05:28AM (#11310706)
> a secular philosophical objection would have to be as equally valid as a religiously motivated one?

That's correct, which is why I mentioned "pacifist or religious arguments". Various types of pacifist arguments have been recognized in the past, of both religious and secular origins.

From the Selective Service[1]:

    WHO QUALIFIES?

    Beliefs which qualify a registrant for CO status may be religious in nature,
    but don't have to be. Beliefs may be moral or ethical; however, a man’s reasons
    for not wanting to participate in a war must not be based on politics, expediency,
    or self-interest. In general, the man’s lifestyle prior to making his claim must
    reflect his current claims.
While religious tests are generally banned, the government can scrutinize the veracity of a claim. I would be very difficult convince a judge that you legitimately believe something if you don't have at least some kind of verifiable history or you regularly engage in behavior that is contradictory with that belief.

It's worth pointing out that being a conscientious objector doesn't necessarily excuse you from having to work for the government; as mentioned in [1], there are "alternate services" available for people that object to the usual draft.

I have no idea how any of this would apply to objecting to creating mass security vulnerabilities. It almost certainly requires a test case and judicial ruling.

[1] https://www.sss.gov/consobj

Re:Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, ... by sp_ on Thursday March 17, 2016 @08:58PM (#11309055)
I'm not saying I'm a conscientious objector, but I write a whole lotta bugs under stress conditions. This may take a while ...
Re:Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, ... by peteretep on Thursday March 17, 2016 @09:53PM (#11309282)
You need to prove your conscientious objections to a court. Unless you've got an existing history of privacy activism, that's going to be a challenge.
Re:Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, ... by BWStearns on Friday March 18, 2016 @05:17AM (#11310682)
If you have spent your career improving privacy software.... this is going to be easy. It's a bit like worrying about establishing your religious bona fides if you're a bishop.
Re:Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, ... by peteretep on Friday March 18, 2016 @09:46PM (#11316784)

    > It's a bit like worrying about establishing your 
    > religious bona fides if you're a bishop
I have created a whole lot of software for money. None of it gives any insight in to my conscience.

A better example would be trying to establish religious bona fides as a result of being a carpenter who makes church pews.

Re:Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, ... by BWStearns on Sunday March 20, 2016 @12:34AM (#11321816)
To beat the analogy to death, only if people came to church primarily for the pews. The reason every bishop would have religious bona fides is because the job inherently requires the conviction. You wouldn't be a security researcher/engineer if you didn't believe in building secure systems. A web developer might be a carpenter in the analogy, sure they might be religious, but it's not inherent in their job.
Re:Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, ... by eximius on Thursday March 17, 2016 @09:18PM (#11309140)
I don't think you can 'conscientiously object' to any law you want, so no.

Though I probably would anyway.

- I'd like to think. It's hard to really know.

Re:Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, ... by Tloewald on Thursday March 17, 2016 @08:25PM (#11308863)
But that wasn't relying on the All Writs Act. I.e. "because the court wants you to do X and there's no specific rule that says whether you can force someone to do X"