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Re:Venezuela to Shut Down for a Week to Cope With Electricit... by randiantech on Thursday March 17, 2016 @02:31PM (#11306472)
Thats a really sad situation, but is common in some LATAM countries. In example, in Argentina there's an active "energetic crisis" plan [1], where government defined an scheduled program to cut electricity in cities to try to mitigate demand.

[1] http://www.buenosairesherald.com/article/149949/power-cuts-i...

Re:Venezuela to Shut Down for a Week to Cope With Electricit... by sparky_z on Thursday March 17, 2016 @02:42PM (#11306555)
At least with Argentina there's reason to be optimistic. From what I've read, the newly-elected Macri administration seems to be taking concrete steps toward reversing Fernandez's economic mismanagement.
Re:Venezuela to Shut Down for a Week to Cope With Electricit... by the_af on Thursday March 17, 2016 @03:29PM (#11306900)
Be aware the country is highly divided along political lines, and some of us in Argentina are thinking Macri is sinking the country into a profound unpayable debt and a crisis the likes of which-- well, I was about say "we've never faced before", but sadly my country is cyclical. We have faced it before, and we will again.

I have reason to be pessimistic about Macri's policies.

Re:Venezuela to Shut Down for a Week to Cope With Electricit... by lucio on Thursday March 17, 2016 @03:57PM (#11307095)
Really? After 90 days of govt.? "in a profound unpayable debt"?

Compared to Kirchner's administration, Macri's waaaay better.

This is a sample of Kirchner's gov:

http://www.eltrecetv.com.ar/telenoche/impactante-video-el-hi...

You can see in the video, the son and the accountant of a major contractor from Kirchner's Administration. They're counting corruption money, and drinking a scotch to celebrate afterwards. Looks like a hollywood script. Reality surpasses fiction.

Re:Venezuela to Shut Down for a Week to Cope With Electricit... by the_af on Thursday March 17, 2016 @04:26PM (#11307321)
Yes, the almost complete surrender to the terms of the holdouts and vulture funds, Paul Singer included, will sink the country into a debt I don't see how it can ever be paid. All within 90 days, quite a feat!

Alleged contractors corruption cases are a serious deal which should be investigated, no-one is denying that, but I don't think corruption alone is all that matters in a country. I'm more worried about disastrous policies. A perfectly honest politician can lead a country to ruin, and many of us don't think Macri is clean in any case.

Re:Venezuela to Shut Down for a Week to Cope With Electricit... by cjensen on Thursday March 17, 2016 @04:59PM (#11307564)
The US had a lot of debt to "Vulture Funds" after the Revolution. The US paid.

Like the US, Argentina's decision to pay its debts will enable the country to borrow, which is useful if you want to invest in stuff which will improve your economy.

Re:Venezuela to Shut Down for a Week to Cope With Electricit... by the_af on Thursday March 17, 2016 @05:18PM (#11307693)
I'm unfamiliar with that part of US history, can you provide me with a brief recap (or better yet, a link to an article) explaining how their creditors behaved like vulture funds? (edit: do you mean this? https://history.state.gov/milestones/1784-1800/loans)

This isn't about regular creditors, but about vulture funds, sovereign debt, ruining countries, and the never-ending cycle of incurring even more debt to pay for existing debt.

Re:Venezuela to Shut Down for a Week to Cope With Electricit... by cjensen on Thursday March 17, 2016 @06:26PM (#11308124)
After the Revolution, the US owed money to many including soldiers who served in the War. After a few years, it seemed like the payments would never be made, and speculators began buying up the debt at steep discounts. These speculators basically acted exactly like the "Vulture Funds" did in the Argentine situation.

Many were naturally for paying what was due to soldiers, and against paying off the speculators who were "preying" on the situation. By paying it all off, Alexander Hamilton demonstrated the (a) the US would make good on its debts and (b) US debts can be can be liquidated bought and sold freely without exception.

Both of these points make it easier for a country to obtain new finances on demand at lower cost. Point (a) means the lender can be assured the country will not disown the loan. Point (b) because debt which can be freely sold gives the lender much more flexibility.

[1] http://www.historycentral.com/NN/economic/Hamiltontorescue.h...

Re:Venezuela to Shut Down for a Week to Cope With Electricit... by the_af on Thursday March 17, 2016 @07:04PM (#11308375)
Thanks! Very informative. I see the parallels now.

However, am I right in thinking that, along with incurring new debt, Hamilton also recommended additional policies, such as taxation and protection of the industry? These are points of criticism of Argentina's new government: relaxation of import restrictions, and decreasing taxation of businesses and of exports from the wealthy agricultural sector.

Re:Venezuela to Shut Down for a Week to Cope With Electricit... by marcosdumay on Thursday March 17, 2016 @07:20PM (#11308461)
A bit nearer to you, Brazil also surrendered to vulture funds at the 90's, and paid it back with things running very smoothly. During all the time the opposition (current government) was screaming how it was impossible to pay it back just like it's doing in Argentina now.

But yes, there are debits that are impossible to pay back. Argentina is too big to get one of those in 90 days, but you may be in that hole - it depends on the details.

Also I'll disagree. Corruption is the single most important issue on LATAM today. It's the root of nearly all of our problems.

Re:Venezuela to Shut Down for a Week to Cope With Electricit... by the_af on Thursday March 17, 2016 @07:34PM (#11308559)
Thanks for the reply and for the polite disagreement :)

> Brazil also surrendered to vulture funds at the 90's, and paid it back with things running very smoothly

What was the impact of those policies on the population, especially on the poor? Honest question, this isn't a trick question -- in fact, I'll be honest and say my assumption is that neoliberal policies in Latin America hurt the poor and create the ground for the rise of so-called populist governments. With Brasil this theory of mine is made less clear by the fact that, if I'm not mistaken, Lula's PT continued many of the policies of Cardoso... I remember being very confused about that!

Re:Venezuela to Shut Down for a Week to Cope With Electricit... by marcosdumay on Thursday March 17, 2016 @08:42PM (#11308972)
The results of controlling inflation and privatizing state companies was that from 94 forward a never seen number of people raised from poverty. Hunger was almost eradicated (yes, before Lula), and wealth inequality started to reduce fast. The result of unwinding those policies is now that people are going back to poverty, also in huge numbers.

I don't have much idea if the net result of renegotiating the external debit was positive or negative. It was mostly a non-event, it is hard to find any impact anywhere. I imagine the magnitude varies with the actual debit size, and at the end of the day, our wasn't that big - despite politicians focusing their discourse on it for a generation.

Anyway, to the extent that it has any meaning, "neoliberalism" also includes focusing on extractivist industries. We didn't practice that part.

Also, there was some effort into fighting corruption and institutionalizing policy. I'd classify it on the poverty reducing side of the balance, so that it murks a bit the effects of monetary stabilization. But then, poverty continued to reduce even late at Lula's government, so I must conclude that the stabilization was more important than this fighting (that wasn't as big as what is happening now).

About the raise of PT, it happened in a period of worldwide economical crisis, and our economy took a hit. The party got very lucky that the world economy recovered fast, and got into a big period of growth, that only ended in 2008.

Re:Venezuela to Shut Down for a Week to Cope With Electricit... by vamur on Thursday March 17, 2016 @04:56PM (#11307542)
The new government will also be corrupt. And they have agreed to repay questionable old debt by taking on new loans, and will probably receive kickbacks from the vultures.
Re:Venezuela to Shut Down for a Week to Cope With Electricit... by rafaelm on Thursday March 17, 2016 @04:18PM (#11307251)
Yeah, same thing is happening here in Venezuela. Chavistas now want the new Assembly to fix what chavismo has been destroying here (still is) for 18 years.
Re:Venezuela to Shut Down for a Week to Cope With Electricit... by the_af on Thursday March 17, 2016 @05:33PM (#11307795)
I'm not very familiar with Venezuela's history (I have a vague notion of events like the "Caracazo", but not too much). What was there before the rise of Chavismo, and was it successful and good for the country?
Re:Venezuela to Shut Down for a Week to Cope With Electricit... by raverbashing on Thursday March 17, 2016 @04:05PM (#11307153)
Yes, it is

Complainers are usually Kirchner "fans" that can't stand that people were fed up with her and kicked her out

It's their strategy

Re:Venezuela to Shut Down for a Week to Cope With Electricit... by the_af on Thursday March 17, 2016 @04:14PM (#11307231)
Well, she wasn't running for re-re-election so she couldn't have been kicked out (personally, I think if she had run, she would have won against Macri, but lost because her party ran with Scioli, a highly divisive and uncharismatic politican, but I admit that's speculation on my part. Let's remember on her first re-election she won with 54% of the votes on the first round, almost unprecedented).

I assume you meant her party was kicked out. Since 49% of voters voted for this party, and Macri's (somewhat fragmented) coalition only won on ballotage, I'd say it was a pretty close call... and now the country is highly divided.

Regardless, the political left doesn't like either Kirchner or Macri, and their criticisms are valid.

Re:Venezuela to Shut Down for a Week to Cope With Electricit... by sparky_z on Thursday March 17, 2016 @04:04PM (#11307147)
Fair enough. I've never been to Argentina, and can only go on what I've read in the news. I'm curious what policies you specifically think are going to sink the country into crisis. Is it just about his deal to make good on the defaulted bonds, or is he a profligate borrower and spender in other areas as well?

If it's primarily the bond deal, I would be sympathetic to the argument that Macri is just being honest and having the country take responsibility for the debts racked up by his predecessors. Another good sign is how he's cleaned up the government statistics office that Fernandez was using to publish ginned up economic indicators to make herself look better (which wasn't fooling anybody outside the country; I don't know how widely they were believed domestically). These sorts of moves pay off in the long term by restoring the goodwill of the international community and giving the government more room to maneuver. The fact that he's making them now, when they make his job more difficult in the short term, suggests a profound professional integrity that inclines me to think of him as a statesman.

Am I misreading your objection here? If so, I'd like to know more about your take on things. (Or maybe you could point me to some sources I could read?)

Re:Venezuela to Shut Down for a Week to Cope With Electricit... by the_af on Thursday March 17, 2016 @04:31PM (#11307361)
Yes, in this concrete case I was thinking about the debt incurred in order to pay the holdouts and the "vulture funds", like Paul Singer's. I think it will be a short term respite that will ultimately lead the country to ruin.

Let's not forget kirchnerismo (the party ousted by Macri) arose from the ashes of De la Rua's government, which was fiscally conservative and "orthodox", and who few would accuse of being populist. His reign ended in the 2001 chaos, with economic upheaval, a collapse of the banking system, a few deaths and the goddamn president flying away in a helicopter! Kirchnerismo didn't even exist back then.

Re:Venezuela to Shut Down for a Week to Cope With Electricit... by RikNieu on Thursday March 17, 2016 @02:40PM (#11306543)
We have it in South Africa too. The official, political term for it is "load shedding".
Re:Venezuela to Shut Down for a Week to Cope With Electricit... by jzwinck on Thursday March 17, 2016 @07:04PM (#11308376)
Nepal calls it load shedding too. In practice it's fairly counterproductive there. People buy banks of car batteries and inverters to store power when it's available and use it later. So they use as much power as before, with the added benefit of tons of hazardous waste from all the equipment at each building. Which of course they just throw into piles of broken stuff.

Does the same happen in South Africa?

Re:Venezuela to Shut Down for a Week to Cope With Electricit... by nickik on Saturday March 19, 2016 @06:35AM (#11318010)
Its very typical and not just for power. It happens with water as well.

The pattern is simular, unstable supply leads to private infrastructure. Demand increases when supply is available, leading to more instablilty. Quality goes down because private infrastructure is usually second rate.

In egypt water quality is way down because of private storage in water tanks.

Re:Venezuela to Shut Down for a Week to Cope With Electricit... by zo1 on Friday March 18, 2016 @11:19AM (#11312332)
When load-shedding "Season" happens, which we had recently, yes. Everyone wants to protect themselves, so a lot of people buy inverters + battery packs, or diesel/petrol generators.
Re:Venezuela to Shut Down for a Week to Cope With Electricit... by Scoundreller on Thursday March 17, 2016 @04:37PM (#11307394)
Most proactive electric grids have load shedding plans. The question is how often do they need to put them in action.
Re:Venezuela to Shut Down for a Week to Cope With Electricit... by _djo_ on Thursday March 17, 2016 @07:17PM (#11308442)
Not entirely the same thing. 'Load shedding' in South Africa has effectively been scheduled blackouts of entire metropolitan areas, including the major cities, to avoid a grid meltdown and to allow for plant repairs.

It's caused by too many plants being poorly-maintained and breaking down and insufficient investment in new power plants caused by corruption and incompetence. In other words, not regular localised reductions or transfers of load, but the same wide scale forced blackouts as being discussed elsewhere in this thread.

There has, thankfully, been no load shedding over the past few months, but only because the economy has slowed down sufficiently that the country's electricity demand has dropped below its regular levels.

Re:Venezuela to Shut Down for a Week to Cope With Electricit... by toomuchtodo on Thursday March 17, 2016 @02:43PM (#11306562)
Could this be helped by first world countries donating solar and wind generation equipment, and peace corps training programs to train and supervise the installation in country?

EDIT: thanks for the replies everyone. sadness.

Re:Venezuela to Shut Down for a Week to Cope With Electricit... by diego_moita on Thursday March 17, 2016 @02:51PM (#11306614)
Disclaimer: I am Brazilian, I know how Latin America & 3rd world "works".

No, it wouldn't help. This crisis is not caused by lack of resources. It is caused by corruption, cronyism, patronage and, above anything else, gigantic incompetence.

If "first world countries" give some help it will probably only benefit the corrupt officials.

Re:Venezuela to Shut Down for a Week to Cope With Electricit... by nickik on Saturday March 19, 2016 @06:38AM (#11318014)
Why incomppetance? People seem to be really competente at using corruption to their benefit. If it would benefit them to be competent, they would improve, but they have no insentive to do so.

So I think its wrong to say "above anything else, gigantic incompetence", its more like "above anything else, bad insentives".

Re:Venezuela to Shut Down for a Week to Cope With Electricit... by aortega on Thursday March 17, 2016 @03:07PM (#11306742)
No. Argentina, Brazil and other latam countries really do not need donations. Venezuela is a very rich country that actually have the second largest oil reserves, ironically. It would be like donating stuff to Saudi Arabia.

Our problem is rampant corruption, populism and mismanagement derived from it.

Brazil is trying to get out. Argentina is out of it, lets hope is not too late. For Venezuela is already too late.

Re:Venezuela to Shut Down for a Week to Cope With Electricit... by the_af on Thursday March 17, 2016 @03:36PM (#11306957)
Argentinian here. The problem is a bit more complex than "populism", because of course if non-populist governments were handling the country perfectly, there would be no risk of "populist" options.

The causes for the problems in Latin America are complex, there is no single root cause that can be easily explained in an Internet forum, and keep in mind many of these countries -- well, I can at least speak for Argentina -- were historically owned and managed by decidedly non populist landowners which influenced the following generations of leaders (and some of these families still own portions of the country). So if populism was a reaction to conservatism and prior authoritarian governments, it cannot (alone) be the root cause of our problems.

Sure, corruption is a problem as well, but I think that alone it doesn't explain our problems either.

I think corruption and populism are more symptoms than causes.

Re:Venezuela to Shut Down for a Week to Cope With Electricit... by aurelianito on Thursday March 17, 2016 @10:02PM (#11309327)
I do not agree with you. I think that the real issue with both Argentina and Brazil is that the ruling class is more interested in going on holidays to Miami and Europe than in the health and progress of the country. It also does not help that just 40 years ago the military wiped out an entire generation of left-wing politicians, which left us with very bad country management :(.
Re:Venezuela to Shut Down for a Week to Cope With Electricit... by adventured on Thursday March 17, 2016 @03:37PM (#11306963)
Venezuela is not a very rich nation. It would be like claiming that Afghanistan is very rich because they have massive deposits of metals.

In just three years, their inflation (the bolivar has lost 97% of its value) and economic contraction has taken their GDP per capita from ~$14,000 to ~$4,000. They've lost at least 70% of their economy, and it's not over yet.

Saudi Arabia's economic output is nearly five times greater per capita. Their median income and median household net wealth are both vastly higher than Venezuela. Saudi Arabia still has substantial capital reserves, while Venezuela has almost none.

Venezuela now has a $20 monthly minimum wage. [1] Most of the nation is struggling to afford food.

Saudi and Venezuela couldn't be any more different outside of being petro states.

[1] http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-03-06/monthly-sa...

Re:Venezuela to Shut Down for a Week to Cope With Electricit... by stickfigure on Thursday March 17, 2016 @06:25PM (#11308115)
I don't think you and the parent contradict each other. Venezuela has natural resources, favorable geography, a reasonably well-educated population, and (until recently) reasonably modern infrastructure. Many countries have fared far better with far less. The problem is management.
Re:Venezuela to Shut Down for a Week to Cope With Electricit... by noir_lord on Thursday March 17, 2016 @08:30PM (#11308896)
> The problem is management.

When isn't that true sadly.

> No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time

Churchill quoting one of his predecessors in his autobiography "Churchill by Himself".

Re:Venezuela to Shut Down for a Week to Cope With Electricit... by lucio on Thursday March 17, 2016 @02:50PM (#11306605)
It is not a natural disaster, this is self-inflicted
Re:Venezuela to Shut Down for a Week to Cope With Electricit... by maw on Thursday March 17, 2016 @02:51PM (#11306612)
Probably not, unfortunately. This type of problem isn't really due to a lack of resources and so more resources are unlikely to help much.
Re:Venezuela to Shut Down for a Week to Cope With Electricit... by AI_Overlord on Thursday March 17, 2016 @03:33PM (#11306939)
Nope. The people chose the gov that is causing all these problems. They must first get rid of it. Otherwise it'll just be throwing pearls to swine.