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Re:America's Jobless Future? by flogic on Monday February 15, 2010 @02:09PM (#1127234)
I'm going to go out on a limb here. This is the inherent weakness of the capitalist system. Eventually productivity outstrips need. The process is kinda backwards but that seems to be the truth. In my world, a manager lays people off to save money. Then they realize work isn't getting done because they have less people. So they use automation to fill the gaps. Those jobs don't come back.
Re:America's Jobless Future? by jacoblyles on Monday February 15, 2010 @03:24PM (#1127391)
Tired old statistic: in the 1700s, 90% of American workers worked on farms. But because of automation, today only 2% of workers do and we are better off for it. We spend a smaller percentage of our resources on producing the food we eat and can put those resources to other uses. Also, it is not true that 88% of people are unemployed.
Re:America's Jobless Future? by flogic on Monday February 15, 2010 @05:39PM (#1127742)
Yes but during the industrial revolution we had a lot of unmet need. Now, we are much better off. I'm not convince there is enough need to justify keeping everyone employed.
Re:America's Jobless Future? by jacoblyles on Monday February 15, 2010 @07:27PM (#1127952)
Just to be clear, the entire history of humankind is evidence against your theory. You are guessing that something will happen that has never happened before.

That's not as bad as it sounds. Every event has to happen for a first time. But you should realize that you are making a very extreme claim based on nothing more than speculation.

Re:America's Jobless Future? by flogic on Tuesday February 16, 2010 @02:20AM (#1128515)
I'm quite probably wrong and I'm also playing devils advocate poorly. What I'm trying to say is we already have almost everything we need. While I can point to many aspects of my life that could be improved upon, I can't point to many where the improvement would result in more and better jobs.
Re:America's Jobless Future? by msluyter on Monday February 15, 2010 @02:24PM (#1127274)
I assume you've been downvoted because there's a somewhat reflexive faith here that new classes of jobs will always be created to fill those that have been taken over by increased automation/productivity. That may be true, but for anyone who believes that, I recommend at least taking a look at the arguments Marshall Brain presents in his"Robotic Nation." One of his conclusions is that -- unlike with previous revolutions where new classes of jobs appeared to replace the ones that were destroyed (industrial for agricultural, for example) -- no new class of jobs appears to be on the horizon that is also not automatable.
Re:America's Jobless Future? by jacoblyles on Monday February 15, 2010 @03:19PM (#1127379)
I am down-voting him because, after two centuries of automation, the unemployment rate still hovers between 5 and 10 percent. In short, his ideas have no basis in reality and he makes no attempt to justify them. It is simple internet pop economics, and the world has too much of it. Not down-voting people like this is what leads to politicians getting away with ignorant demagoguery on economic subjects and a population too ill-informed to call them out on it.

Sure, when the singularity comes things may be different. But if that is his case, then he should make the argument. The parent comment is just noise.

Re:America's Jobless Future? by lionhearted on Monday February 15, 2010 @03:04PM (#1127341)
I can't recommend the book "Economics in One Lesson" highly enough. It answers this question.

Full text here: http://jim.com/econ/

I think it should be required reading for everyone during high school. This chapter is relevant:

"The Curse of Machinery" - http://jim.com/econ/chap07p1.html

Long story very short? We'll be okay. It's been a worry for a long time, and it's always been false. But the chapter of the book says it much better than me, and it's a short read. Actually, I'm going to submit this now as a separate submission. Really, highly recommended, very insightful stuff.

Edit: Submitted here if you'd like to discuss: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1127345

Re:America's Jobless Future? by msluyter on Monday February 15, 2010 @03:20PM (#1127384)
It's been a worry for a long time, and it's always been false.

And therefore it will always be false?

Re:America's Jobless Future? by Zot95 on Monday February 15, 2010 @05:14PM (#1127678)
The "TL;DR" doesn't cover it, but in the chapter the previous commenter references, he does explain why it's a logical fallacy. At the risk of putting something incomplete and/or incorrect, TL;DR summary of the explanation of the fallacy is that the productivity saved by automation is always available to fuel further production.
Re:America's Jobless Future? by bluedanieru on Monday February 15, 2010 @08:28PM (#1128062)
Higher average productivity is great, but the problem America has at the moment is an ever-widening gap in income, and very little political will to do anything about it. An important passage in the article:

William Felkin, in his History of the Machine-Wrought Hosiery Manufactures (1867), tells us (though the statement seems implausible) that the larger part of the 50,000 English stocking knitters and their families did not fully emerge from the hunger and misery entailed by the introduction of the machine for the next forty years.

If this is true it is a big deal. Suppose you invent a device that will double economic output while putting half the population out of work. There's no question the device needs to be put to use, but something needs to be done about all these displaced people as well. Much of the surplus in productivity borne of your invention will need to be used to help those people switch to other work, allow them to retire early, etc. In other words you will be taxed heavily, something which is very hard to do these days in the States. So the American worker seems especially vulnerable to displacement by automation, and you get this scapegoating of machinery. If you don't like it, next time you hear some jerk on the radio bleating about high taxes and socialism, think about where that money might be going, and vote accordingly.

Re:America's Jobless Future? by dsplittgerber on Monday February 15, 2010 @03:20PM (#1127383)
What about knowledge workers? They're a new class of workers. There is no AI good enough yet to replace a book author, a marketing manager, a lawyer etc. Will they ever be automatable? Probably. But who knows which new class will emerge after the knowledge workers..
Re:America's Jobless Future? by msluyter on Monday February 15, 2010 @03:30PM (#1127406)
Here's Marshall Brain's response:

The conventional wisdom says that the economy will create 50 million new jobs to absorb all the unemployed people, but that raises two important questions:

What will those new jobs be? They won't be in manufacturing -- robots will hold all the manufacturing jobs. They won't be in the service sector (where most new jobs are now) -- robots will work in all the restaurants and retail stores. They won't be in transportation -- robots will be driving everything. They won't be in security (robotic police, robotic firefighters), the military (robotic soldiers), entertainment (robotic actors), medicine (robotic doctors, nurses, pharmacists, counselors), construction (robotic construction workers), aviation (robotic pilots, robotic air traffic controllers), office work (robotic receptionists, call centers and managers), research (robotic scientists), education (robotic teachers and computer-based training), programming or engineering (outsourced to India at one-tenth the cost), farming (robotic agricultural machinery), etc. We are assuming that the economy is going to invent an entirely new category of employment that will absorb half of the working population.

Why isn't the economy creating those new jobs now? Today there are millions of unemployed people. There are also tens of millions of people who would gladly abandon their minimum wage jobs scrubbing toilets, flipping burgers, driving trucks and shelving inventory for something better. This imaginary new category of employment does not hinge on technology -- it is going to employ people, after all, in massive numbers -- it is going to employ half of today's working population. Why don't we see any evidence of this new category of jobs today?

I don't find some of his examples (robotic scientists?) particularly persuasive, but the idea that many low skilled jobs will be destroyed while few high skill jobs created... seems at least plausible to me. That this has never happened before isn't a particularly good argument why it couldn't happen in the future.

Re:America's Jobless Future? by timr on Monday February 15, 2010 @04:23PM (#1127543)
I fear that this argument is too sci-fi to be taken seriously by the overly literal personalities that tend to dominate HN, so let's make it clear: he's not actually saying that "robot scientists" are going to take over. Brain is performing a reductio ad absurdum -- he's taking the other side's argument to the extreme to demonstrate the fundamental logical fallacies involved.

We don't need to wait for robot scientists to see the consequences of automation -- it's happening right now. Smaller numbers of skilled laborers are replacing larger numbers of unskilled laborers. To make the argumentative leap that this is a sustainable process, you have to prove that somehow, we will dramatically reduce the number of people who depend on unskilled labor to to make a living. I have yet to see a convincing proof that this is occurring. At best, we seem to keep shifting the kind of unskilled labor that we need, and paying less for it.

Re:America's Jobless Future? by ippisl on Monday February 15, 2010 @04:22PM (#1127541)
I do agree with your arguments, but regarding robotic scientists: automation is pretty strong also in science. combinatorial chemistry is used a lot in chemistry and chip fabrication r&d. And there's even a robot called ADAM that does biology research: he raises hypotheses , plans and executes experiments , analyzes results , and decides how to continue. the whole research loop.
Re:America's Jobless Future? by dsplittgerber on Monday February 15, 2010 @04:42PM (#1127586)
What I don't get is the difference of timelines in his argument. Considering all the fields where supposedly humans are to be replaced by robots we are talking about a point in time probably still a 100 years off. (And we just cannot say for sure that all those activities ever can be sufficiently performed by robots, probably until it happens.) So how are we supposed to know what kinds of jobs there will be in a 100 years time?

My (imaginary) farming and livestock-holding greatgrandfather probably didn't ever imagine someone could make a living out of Search Engine Optimization. Still, despite machines ploughing our fields, we still have jobs. So we probably will have jobs in 100 years time. We just have no idea which ones.

Re:America's Jobless Future? by dsplittgerber on Monday February 15, 2010 @02:22PM (#1127267)
But the people laid off may found a great company afterwards. You look at the economy as a zero-sum game. But the pie is growing bigger nearly all the time.
Re:America's Jobless Future? by bengebre on Monday February 15, 2010 @02:49PM (#1127316)
As a thought experiment, isn't it possible that the pie (wealth) could grow larger but that the distribution of that wealth could be narrower due to technology and outsourcing of jobs? That may not be zero-sum, but it could certainly be problematic for wage earners.
Re:America's Jobless Future? by dsplittgerber on Monday February 15, 2010 @03:17PM (#1127372)
The wealth distribution within a given first-world society is certainly changing, with bigger amounts of wealth going to the top 1% etc. That's mostly due to the fact that well educated and connected knowledge workers are able to utilize globalization to a greater extent than your regular mailman. But that's not necessarily for the worse. Even inflation-adjusted wage stagnation need not necessarily be bad, as you mostly can buy more with your money today (reduced prices for electronics, basic necessities etc.) than in the past.
Re:America's Jobless Future? by stingraycharles on Monday February 15, 2010 @02:20PM (#1127262)
Who makes the automation possible?
Re:America's Jobless Future? by msluyter on Monday February 15, 2010 @02:27PM (#1127281)
We do, for now, but for every one job created for a software/hardware engineer, several (probably low skill jobs) may be destroyed. Compare the total number of, say, cashiers to software developers.
Re:America's Jobless Future? by Nwallins on Monday February 15, 2010 @02:55PM (#1127328)
> Compare the total number of, say, cashiers to software developers.

So, ATMS... would you replace them with human bank tellers? Would that be a net benefit to the economy?

Re:America's Jobless Future? by msluyter on Monday February 15, 2010 @03:25PM (#1127395)
No, I mean, if it is indeed the case that the total number of jobs displaced by automation exceeds those generated by it, I have no particular take on how to handle it.
Re:America's Jobless Future? by Nwallins on Monday February 15, 2010 @03:33PM (#1127412)
My point is that though automation "costs" jobs, it simultaneously reduces the cost of production (e.g. the production of financial transactions, here). Ultimately the benefit from more efficient production is a rising tide that lifts all ships. It would be hard to argue that reversing the industrial revolution and returning to cottage industries would be a net benefit, even though our current production levels would require 10-1000x as many jobs.
Re:America's Jobless Future? by korch on Monday February 15, 2010 @03:26PM (#1127398)
From a microeconomic perspective, the specialization of labor undoubtedly allows us to maximize production, yet from a macroeconomic perspective, I think you're right.

I know Marx is beyond dated, and that it's only permitted to speak of him using hushed tones in serious conversation, however, in Das Kapital one of his fundamental arguments was that the long-run problem Capitalism is destined to face and ultimately lose to will be the problem of over-production. Which sounds counter-intuitive, as how could over-production possibly be bad? His argument is interesting and worth studying for itself, even if it is mostly outdated.

Re:America's Jobless Future? by codexon on Monday February 15, 2010 @04:29PM (#1127558)
how could over-production possibly be bad?

Over-production results in a general glut. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_glut

Real demand is still present, but the lack of liquidity in a general glut artificially depresses demand. Fed chairman Ben Bernanke explains:

but the story that captivated Bernanke involved a town full of shoe factories that closed during the Depression, leaving the community so poor that its children went barefoot. "I kept asking, Why didn't they just open the factories and make the kids shoes?

The reason is because the community didn't have anything to offer the factory owners. The factory owners know that the community doesn't have money to pay for shoes, but on the other hand the community would have money if these factories paid them instead of closing the factories.

These problems would go away if anyone could own a factory and have access to the materials, which many people above have said. However, this goes against the tenets of a capitalist free market: where someone is free to own much of the resources/land/factories/IP, which sets the barrier to entry beyond what most people can pay.

Re:America's Jobless Future? by nova on Monday February 15, 2010 @09:25PM (#1128133)
free to own much of the resources/land/factories/IP

One of these things doesn't belong.