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Re:America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries... by victorhugo31337 on Thursday March 10, 2016 @07:39PM (#11263756)
This is what happens when no child is left behind. How can EVERYONE graduate from HS without lowering the bar?
Re:America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries... by hackuser on Thursday March 10, 2016 @08:22PM (#11263986)
Outcomes vary greatly by school, zip code, and socio-economic class. Are children in the wrong zip code just lazy? Why do the children in poor families perform so much worse than in rich families? It doesn't, by any measure, appear to be a consequence of the children's efforts.
Re:America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries... by j1o1h1n on Friday March 11, 2016 @12:46AM (#11264866)
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/12/151216082154.h...

"the influence of genes on intelligence varies according to people's social class in the US, but not in Western Europe or Australia. "

"That is, the relatively robust healthcare and social-welfare programs in Western Europe and Australia may buffer some of the negative environmental effects typically associated with poverty."

Re:America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries... by hackuser on Friday March 11, 2016 @01:11AM (#11264942)
One reason those studies are so controversial is the fear that people will horribly misapply them. Their fears are confirmed regularly, even among regularly sophisticated audiences such as HN.

What you write is not applicable, for many reasons.

Re:America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries... by moultano on Thursday March 10, 2016 @08:38PM (#11264065)
>It doesn't, by any measure, appear to be a consequence of the children's efforts.

What basis do you have for saying that?

Re:America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries... by ryandrake on Thursday March 10, 2016 @10:19PM (#11264447)
The best ranked public schools are consistently in the richest neighborhoods, and the worst ranked ones are consistently in the poorest neighborhoods. I don't think this can be disputed. So, what's more likely?

1. Rich neighborhoods result in well-funded schools with the resources to provide a superior education, better than the not-well-funded schools that are in poor neighborhoods.

Or

2. A superior education comes from "children's efforts" and kids that put in a lot of effort coincidentally all live in the same school districts, which also coincidentally are located in the richest neighborhoods?

Re:America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries... by sethammons on Friday March 11, 2016 @08:26AM (#11266432)
It has more to do with parent involvement and support, and after that, community support. If the family does not value education, then the likely kids wont. Poverty in and of itself plays a role. Poorer families have other stressors that distract from school, and poorer families tend to not know the benefit of education (they may have been told education is a ticket out of poverty, but few see it happen). And it spreads out of the home. In poverty stricken areas, the majority of peers will shun those who are academically excellent as some kind of sell out. There have been successful schools in poor areas like Harlem when the majority of parents and students care about their education. On the flip side, excellent schools pull in families that value school performance and those families support and push the students. Annecdata: I grew up very poor and made it well into the middle class, it can be done, but the cards are stacked against you.
Re:America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries... by moultano on Thursday March 10, 2016 @10:50PM (#11264536)
Why would you think that similar people living near each other is the result of a coincidence?

Abject poverty is likely to have way more impact on kids performance in school than any level of school funding. Whether you want to lump that in with "children's efforts" or not, it's certainly exogenous to the school.

Re:America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries... by ars on Thursday March 10, 2016 @10:49PM (#11264531)
Or 3. The humans who are smarter become richer and have children who are also smarter (and thus do better in school).
Re:America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries... by JakeAl on Saturday March 12, 2016 @09:31AM (#11273009)
> "Why do the children in poor families perform so much worse than in rich families?"

Coping skills and resources. Reminds me of

Privilege and inequality in Silicon Valley https://medium.com/tech-diversity-files/privilege-and-inequa...

Re:America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries... by InclinedPlane on Thursday March 10, 2016 @09:39PM (#11264280)
The problem is multi-fold. If you have a bunch of low quality high schools pumping out borderline illiterate "graduates" just due to dumb bureaucratic inertia and politics then that devalues the high school diploma as a credential (which we've certainly seen). Now we have a lot of HS graduates who can't get a non-minimum wage job without going on to college, and all the enormous problems we've witnessed that causing.
Re:America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries... by Retra on Thursday March 10, 2016 @07:51PM (#11263830)
Because education is not a zero-sum activity?
Re:America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries... by kuschku on Thursday March 10, 2016 @11:37PM (#11264667)
You can say that when your school can provide 2 or more teachers per class of 20 pupils in high school, but as far as I know, in contrast to the schools where I'm from, in the US that doesn't happen.

With growing class sizes, and less teachers, US schools don't have the resources to focus on individual students' needs. The best they can do is trying to get some students through.

They could adopt the more modern concepts, where small groups of pupils get a task they can't do yet "derive a function", each group gets given some hints in which way to try it (each group in a different one — one going via limits, the next doing it numerically, the next graphically), and then each group presenting their concept to the others, and comparing.

Those, more modern teaching concepts, also allow for good teaching for every student with a low amount of teachers (and teach independent understanding, research, etc), but they're rare in most countries.

Re:America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries... by enraged_camel on Thursday March 10, 2016 @10:03PM (#11264392)
The resources allocated to education are not infinite.
Re:America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries... by vacri on Friday March 11, 2016 @12:36AM (#11264839)
They don't need to be infinite; education just needs to be taken more seriously. And the public in general needs to understand that social programs they like need to be funded, and that sometimes means more taxes (education is basically a social program).

The US has a very high wealth per capita - if other countries with similar resources can do it, so can the US.

Re:America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries... by bnolsen on Thursday March 10, 2016 @07:45PM (#11263791)
Absolutely utterly agreed. Trying to pull along students who want to fail pulls down the ones who want to succeed.

The American dream used to be about letting those who work hard succeed, and letting those who didn't fail. And anyone could choose to more from the fail to the succeed pool.

Re:America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries... by derefr on Thursday March 10, 2016 @07:53PM (#11263838)
NCLB deals with very few kids who "want to fail." It mostly deals with kids with learning/communication disabilities. Those kids don't have the choice of just "moving from the fail to the succeed pool"; they have to be given the opportunity to succeed you're talking about by giving them increased assistance. Which takes budget and teacher-time away from other students, which decreases class performance.

If you really want to fix education, don't repeal NCLB; amend it to state that special-needs kids get education vouchers with for going to a school specifically enabled to help them, with at least one state-funded school so enabled in each state; and then drop the requirement that any other school handle them in normal classes.

This would be better for the student, for the teacher, and for all the other students. The only people it would negatively affect are the parents, who would be forced to either homeschool, or move the family to a place where schooling for their child is available.

Re:America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries... by rankam on Thursday March 10, 2016 @08:10PM (#11263930)
This isn't true at at all. I worked at the NYCDOE for 3 years planning, implementing, and executing NCLB. NCLB deals with passing tax dollars to private companies - plain and simple. Superintendents/Schools/Teachers no longer create their own curriculum - it's all purchased and has to be to meet the regulatory requirements of NCLB (amongst other regulations which benefit corporations).

To clarify - I think corporations should profit as much as possible. I do have an issue with companies profiting from making shit products that comply with regulations and acting like they are making a positive contribution to society.

Re:America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries... by hackuser on Thursday March 10, 2016 @08:17PM (#11263967)
> The American dream used to be about letting those who work hard succeed, and letting those who didn't fail.

I've never heard the latter. When was this true? According to one history I read, one of the appeals of the New Deal programs in the 1930s is that we would be better than the Old World (i.e., Europe) and not leave our own citizens in the gutter.

Re:America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries... by keithnz on Thursday March 10, 2016 @07:51PM (#11263829)
Rather than this conclusion, perhaps, look at what other countries are doing? Are they leaving children behind? or do they have better techniques for making sure everyone does well?
Re:America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries... by kuschku on Thursday March 10, 2016 @11:43PM (#11264685)
Germany, in fact, does leave people behind.

But it doesn't leave them without perspective.

The tiered school model of Germany sorts you into one of three tiers based on your abilities with the age of 10, which gets even more specific over the years after that.

Only people finishing from the highest tier can go to a theoretical university, people from the tier below can at maximum go to a university of applied sciences, and people from the lowest tier can only go to a trade school.

Obviously, these tiers have different lengths of education (5 years, 6 years, 8 years), and you can always switch up a tier if you believe you can do it, but most people take what's recommended for them.

And this is necessary.

We, as a society, have to accept that some people won't be able to study maths. Or computer science.

For some people, applied sciences, or even a more technical job might be more ideal.

The solution isn't to get everyone into college, but to accept the fact that not everyone can do so, and to also value the job the manual workers are doing.

There is this nice advertisement campaign from 2014 from the German association of craftsmen, "What would the world be without craftsmen?": https://youtu.be/YfgqIWwxk2g

Re:America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries... by mattlutze on Friday March 11, 2016 @07:16AM (#11266123)
Students from technical high schools can attend theoretical universities and just need to do some remedial prep work first.

It's necessary not because of what some people can't do, but because:

1. It doesn't make sense to send people, who want to work in hospitality for example, to a school that has to pay for physics, chemical engineering, medical labs, etc.

2. Reducing the shopping mall quality of the American-style university -- and equally respecting technical and trade schools for the education they provide -- results in a more even distribution of attendance and probably healthier personal debt.

A lot of the German school routing is directed by desire as well; the solution is to help youngsters explore and express the skills they have most strongly.

The architecture is a bit complicated, though the picture on Wikipedia does an alright job explaining it, I think:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Germany#Overview

Re:America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries... by Hockenbrizzle on Friday March 11, 2016 @08:25AM (#11266427)
That's a great advertisement.

I've just moved to Germany from the US about one year ago. So far it's made me realize how under-developed the US society is. As I learn more about how Germany operates, I constantly have those, "that makes so much more sense", moments. Of course this isn't always true, but in general I feel that they are just doing things a little better here.

I agree that society has to change how we view jobs that don't require education from a university. It makes no sense that we should value an engineer from a tech company more than a farmer that provides our food.

Also, I find that people in Germany are more aware of what role they play in society and how it operates.

Re:America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries... by kuschku on Friday March 11, 2016 @02:42PM (#11268977)
As a German I have to say, while this sounds nice, Germany is still horribly inefficient, trains and busses are always late, and a lot of bureaucracy is useless.

I’m not sure yet if Germany is just the least worst country, or if it’s just all PR.

Re:America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries... by ATsch on Friday March 11, 2016 @10:54AM (#11267294)
some more things to note (granted, I don't know how things work in the rest of the world):

the sorting after the age of 10 is simply a recommendation. It is simply an estimation of the Teacher if the Student will get accepted by a school of certain tier. For example, I recieved a mid-tier (Realschule) recommendation, but was accepted by a highesthtier (Gymnasium) school due to musical skill and passing some kind of intelligence test.

Skills taught by the scools vary by tier. A friend wo went to a lower tier school tended to have more practical subjects such as "mechanics" or "crafting". They learned how to assemble a solar array, how a transmission or factory line works etc.

You can get to any tier of education if you want. If you want to become a baker and are on a highest tier school you can drop out after getting your low-tier certificate in 9th grade and go to a trade school, and that's totally fine. If you are in a low-tier school you can either have grades good enough to get accepted by a mid-tier school and then by a high-tier school. You can also go to school in the evening if you want a better certificate, but have a job.

Re:America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries... by spacecowboy_lon on Friday March 11, 2016 @03:59AM (#11265519)
Ah just like the old System the UK had with Grammar schools for the middle class and Secondary modern for the working class kids whose role in life to leave school at 15/16 and work in industry.
Re:America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries... by tremon on Friday March 11, 2016 @06:11AM (#11265912)
It's got nothing to do with "working class kids" and their "role in life". I've had classmates from very affluent parents move into vocational training, and I've had poor friends complete a university degree.

That the US and UK fail in this matter doesn't say anything about the rest of the world's ability to provide equal opportunity for all children.

Re:America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries... by spacecowboy_lon on Friday March 11, 2016 @07:11AM (#11266103)
Lol that wouldn't fly in this country (UK) vocational training is for the "Plebs".

And from what a German HN contibutor said here its funny how all the "dark skinned" Germans get put into the vocational track.

Germany is unfortuntly an outlier.

Re:America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries... by mapt on Thursday March 10, 2016 @08:14PM (#11263954)
Re:America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries... by ceejayoz on Thursday March 10, 2016 @07:51PM (#11263826)
That appears to be an unfounded assertion. The US graduation rate is well under the OECD average.

http://www.data360.org/dsg.aspx?Data_Set_Group_Id=1653

Re:America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries... by cosmie on Thursday March 10, 2016 @08:38PM (#11264063)
Appearances can be deceiving. Secondary education is compulsory in the US, whereas it's not in every OECD country. In some countries such as Japan, high school is not only optional but you have to take exams just to get accepted into a particular high school. This effectively stratifies students such that you end up with much more homogenous classrooms and allows for more consistent teaching.

Many countries also offer vocational alternatives over academic classes at the secondary education level. While some districts in the US offer vocational "tracks", they still have to abide by the federal and state academic mandates, so they're not usually purely vocational.

Not that the structure of the US system isn't a problem in itself, but the fact that we have compulsory, academic-based secondary education that requires public schools to accept all students zoned for it leaves the US in a tight spot. We'll already have a lower graduation rate simply from people dropping out that would otherwise never have started if it wasn't compulsory here. But it's even worse since we don't optimize it to the students (such as the purely vocational options and competitive high school entrance acceptance that allows for a more homogenous student body and more tailored teaching that I mentioned previously)

Re:America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries... by robert_foss on Thursday March 10, 2016 @07:47PM (#11263804)
Based on which facts have you arrived at that conclusion?
Re:America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries... by withdavidli on Thursday March 10, 2016 @07:51PM (#11263831)
by extending the time one has in school? by not pushing kids through the ranks because too many would stay back otherwise? by better funding schools, and providing safer environments for kids to work/live in?

did you want actual suggestions?