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Re:Outlook 2016’s New POP3 Bug Deletes Your Emails by username223 on Sunday February 28, 2016 @12:10AM (#11189962)
> UPDATE 02/26/2016: ... TL;DR: Disable automatic updates...

That's just good advice for dealing with modern software, for which fixes, breakage, and feature churn are all mixed in a single awful stream. "Newer" does not mean "better."

Re:Outlook 2016’s New POP3 Bug Deletes Your Emails by AlexTes on Sunday February 28, 2016 @01:46AM (#11190124)
I use near weekly updates of a custom Android 6.0 ROM and daily use Arch Linux which is a rolling release. My work is on the web with npm keeping us bleeding edge. Other people often ask why my system does this little extra thing that's useful. Usually the answer is found by --version.

Life with up to date tools can be real good. So unless I'm simply the only one using good tools, updates can be good.

Re:Outlook 2016’s New POP3 Bug Deletes Your Emails by Zancarius on Sunday February 28, 2016 @04:25AM (#11190441)
I think it's a mixed bag, to be truthful, and it's a circumstance that's very well described by "pick your poison."

My primary OS is also Arch Linux, and while it's certainly stable, it's not without its warts. Failure to update regularly on a rolling release distro can have absolutely disastrous consequences (though you only have yourself to blame), and a healthy dose of caution is strongly recommended whenever a major update to important software is in the pipeline (think KDE4 to KDE5 transition). I think this sort of bug (Outlook) illustrates the importance of having an abundance of caution with new software where the failure modes may not be well understood by merit of its relative youth. But with rapid releases, I think the problem is a bit more focused on the end user: Someone who is unable or unwilling to take the risk of updates causing material harm to their workflow or consuming time they can't afford in order to fix potential problems should look for more conservative release cycles. I don't think it's really a matter of "good" versus "bad" tools; that may be part of it, but I can't help myself from thinking it's a matter of misplaced expectations.

That is, it's easy to fall into the mindset of erroneously believing that faster, more rapid updates is always better without fully appreciating their impact. (I've done this more times than I'm willing to admit.)

I do think, and maybe I'm wrong (which I usually am), that those of us who tend toward using rolling release distros have a bit of a bias and a rose tint to our glasses. We almost innately know what the risks are, and I think we take that for granted by assuming most others will freely accept such risks and appreciate the occupational hazards that go hand in hand with change. Not everyone has the same degree of patience, nor the same goals or motives. I think our optimism for and evangelizing of software that pushes rapid releases (like Arch, as an example) can help create an aura that lulls those we influence into expectations that don't mesh well with their use case, their personality, or their constraints. Is that a bad thing? I don't think so (evangelizing is important), because I do agree with you: Updates can be good. I just think we're all too happy to espouse advantages while sometimes glossing over potential drawbacks (guilty again as charged!). :)

Anyway, I should apologize: I didn't mean to wax philosophical. It's late in my timezone, and I saw another Arch user who provoked me into a short essay. I agree with you and username223, but I don't have any real answer. I do think that sometimes we ought to be more cautious with our advice and perhaps weigh context more heavily than our excitement allows. (I made the mistake once of suggesting Arch to someone who really ought to use something with sturdier training wheels. My only saving grace is that he never got around to installing it.)

Re:Outlook 2016’s New POP3 Bug Deletes Your Emails by frik on Sunday February 28, 2016 @02:10AM (#11190169)
It depends. With rather new still evolving ecosystems, every update is welcome. Also the security updates are important for OS and browsers.

But with stagnating platforms, like Windows where tipping point was Windows XP (or Windows 7), it goes downhill with every update since then, the bubble bursted, now the user is the product, and your files get screened and searched by the platform owners. You can run software from 1985 (Win 1.0) on Windows 7 (32bit, but it's just an arbitrary limitation to prevent 16bit applications from running on 64bit OS, the competition can do that see Wine and ReactOS). Almost every developer already moved on to the web or emerging new platforms like the market share dominating Android or the second most popular one, iOS/OSX. End users are smart, they don't buy into old antique burned platforms of yesteryear anymore. They application landscape is changing as well. And for everyone who is still happy with their old software, there is little reason to update, and it won't get better on sinking platforms.

Re:Outlook 2016’s New POP3 Bug Deletes Your Emails by Aloha on Sunday February 28, 2016 @04:14AM (#11190411)
No, its not an arbitrary decision - there are some pretty decent reasons why Microsoft declined to support running 16 bit apps via NTVDM/wowexec - virtual 8086 mode isn't supported in long mode - now certainly, they could have ported the functionality from NT 4 they used to get NTVDM working on non x86 processors (it included an i486 emulator) - but to what end, realistically, how many people are still running 16-bit only software?

Another thing I'd point out - Microsoft almost backed themselves into a corner worshiping at the shrine of backwards compatibility - to the point it was difficult to move their platform or their ecosystems software forward to use more modern, more secure and more reliable methods - so unless you've been very forward looking from the start (see IBM System Z) there is a real, fundamental and painful engineering cost to maintain a line to yesterday without great sacrifices to tomorrow.

I'd argue that the PC (be it Windows, OSX or Linux) is here to stay for the foreseeable future - it may not be the platform for everyone - but for many workloads and applications the web, or mobile simply will not do.

Re:Outlook 2016’s New POP3 Bug Deletes Your Emails by golergka on Sunday February 28, 2016 @07:42AM (#11190783)
> unless you've been very forward looking from the start (see IBM System Z)

Can you elaborate? System Z always looks curious, but I don't think that many people who aren't involved with mainframes professionally had a chance to even look at it

Re:Outlook 2016’s New POP3 Bug Deletes Your Emails by Aloha on Sunday February 28, 2016 @02:27PM (#11191985)
Everything I know of System Z I've read online - it was designed more or less for backwards compatibility from the start.
Re:Outlook 2016’s New POP3 Bug Deletes Your Emails by adrianN on Sunday February 28, 2016 @03:44AM (#11190355)
> Almost every developer already moved on to the web or emerging new platforms like the market share dominating Android or the second most popular one, iOS/OSX.

It must be nice in your filter bubble.

Re:Outlook 2016’s New POP3 Bug Deletes Your Emails by raverbashing on Sunday February 28, 2016 @01:32AM (#11190103)
As someone who recently had Android 6.0 available for their phone and decided to upgrade, exactly this

Some genius at Google decided to make the phone vibrate and beep every time there is an open WiFi spot, or you need to sign up to a known one

Really

This kind of crap (not the only one) almost justifies the extra price for iOS

Re:Outlook 2016’s New POP3 Bug Deletes Your Emails by danieldk on Sunday February 28, 2016 @01:52AM (#11190137)
I (Moto X 2014) got a different set of bugs on M. Mostly problems with basic functionality:

- When I get called, half of the time I don't see the name of the person when they are in my address book.

- Music controls (which were already very basic) usually stopped working a certain amount of time after the last restart.

- Music randomly pauses when browsing the web at the same time (as in, I have to open up the music notification card and press 'Play' again).

- E-Mail notifications have been flaky for some reason.

- Active display music controls are worthless again. Google decided to add a 'favorite' button. Motorola just picks the first three buttons from the notification card. Now you can't go to the next track anymore.

Security updates were also still at the 1 November 2015 level. After being stuck for half a year on a buggy 5.0 release before getting 5.1, I know this is going to take months to fix, if ever (Lenovo probably doesn't care about the 2014 anymore).

I am now back to an iPhone after a Nexus 4, Moto X 2013, and Moto X 2014.

Re:Outlook 2016’s New POP3 Bug Deletes Your Emails by cft on Sunday February 28, 2016 @04:24AM (#11190438)
Now that you need to bring your own phone to most carriers, there is no reason not to stick with Nexus/pure Android. The updates work there for the most part.
Re:Outlook 2016’s New POP3 Bug Deletes Your Emails by condescendence on Sunday February 28, 2016 @01:34AM (#11190109)
There's also similar quirkiness with the VPN client. Does notifications for random events, and they aren't even consistent.
Re:Outlook 2016’s New POP3 Bug Deletes Your Emails by Aoyagi on Sunday February 28, 2016 @05:34AM (#11190586)
I'm genuinely surprised Microsoft allows disabling of those automatic updates...
Re:Outlook 2016’s New POP3 Bug Deletes Your Emails by msh on Sunday February 28, 2016 @07:34AM (#11190766)
Their enterprise customers would rebel if that was not allowed.
Re:Outlook 2016’s New POP3 Bug Deletes Your Emails by Aoyagi on Monday February 29, 2016 @06:38AM (#11194872)
Well, they can make a more expensive / difficult to get (for an individual) version, similarly to how it works with Windows 10.
Re:Outlook 2016’s New POP3 Bug Deletes Your Emails by Nutmog on Sunday February 28, 2016 @12:16AM (#11189972)
I almost totally agree. If it wasn't for security fixes, there would be no value in updating almost any software. If it's already working OK, just leave it alone.

15 years ago when people had problems with their graphics cards, the standard "fix" was to update the driver. Now we're still updating drivers. Weren't the problems supposed to have been fixed many years ago? It seems they introduce as many new bugs as they fix, making the net effect of updates useless as far as bugs go.

For security related bugs, stop using C++ for internet facing software.

Re:Outlook 2016’s New POP3 Bug Deletes Your Emails by tasty_freeze on Sunday February 28, 2016 @02:17AM (#11190182)
"Now we're still updating drivers. Weren't the problems supposed to have been fixed many years ago?"

Your statement makes sense if you believe that graphics card manufacturers were still working on drivers for 15 year old cards and 15 year old APIs.

Manufacturers are always putting out new cards, and there are new APIs to support. Writing drives for dozens of chips spanning multiple generations of graphics architectures to work on multiple OSs and supporting multiple APIs is incredibly challenging.

Even if there was just one chip and one OS and one API to support, getting maximum performance across multiple applications is non-trivial. Drivers have a lot of heuristics to try to maximize performance, and manufacturers invest heavily in tuning those heuristics even to specific games to get the best results.

If you aren't a gamer, then, yeah, you can run three year old drivers and it won't affect the speed of scrolling the text in your browsers or whatever.

Re:Outlook 2016’s New POP3 Bug Deletes Your Emails by JBiserkov on Sunday February 28, 2016 @04:28AM (#11190448)
Also, most games have unbelievable bugs that currently get caught and mitigated by drivers. So whenever a new game is released (or updated) a new driver has to be released.
Re:Outlook 2016’s New POP3 Bug Deletes Your Emails by my5thaccount on Sunday February 28, 2016 @12:31AM (#11189998)
It's hard to explain to people, who aren't techies, why I, as a programmer, don't have the latest and greatest software installed asap.

I still use Visual Source Safe for my personal projects. It's never failed me in 20 years. Right click, check out, right click checkin. Perfect every time.

Re:Outlook 2016’s New POP3 Bug Deletes Your Emails by robzyb on Sunday February 28, 2016 @12:54AM (#11190033)
> I still use Visual Source Safe for my personal projects. It's never failed me in 20 years. Right click, check out, right click checkin. Perfect every time.

1st reaction: Horrified that you are still using VSS.

2nd reaction: Was that if it does what you need it to, well, then, who am I to judge? It doesn't matter whether the tool was created yesterday or 20 years ago.

3rd reaction: Does it really do what you need it to do? I would guess that maybe svn/git has some simple featured that would significantly improve your life.

4th reaction: Wasn't VSS known as being super buggy? Is it just luck that you've escaped failure in 20 years?

Re:Outlook 2016’s New POP3 Bug Deletes Your Emails by sk5t on Sunday February 28, 2016 @12:59AM (#11190044)
This is horrifying indeed. I cannot imagine any reason to go on using VSS other than a very, very robust aversion to learning anything new.

And yes, VSS is very buggy, although the bugs might not show up for a single-user environment always following the happy path.

Re:Outlook 2016’s New POP3 Bug Deletes Your Emails by my5thaccount on Sunday February 28, 2016 @01:46AM (#11190125)
I've used git on several hosts and subversion back in the day. I have no problem learning new things. Tortoise, bitbucket, github, beanstalk to name a few.

I think your reaction is more horrifying than me not having a compelling reason to change the way I've been doing things without flaw for decades.

Re:Outlook 2016’s New POP3 Bug Deletes Your Emails by Aloha on Sunday February 28, 2016 @04:19AM (#11190427)
So long as it works for you, thats great - I just hope you have a migration path if/when it stops working.

I do however get the objection to newer is better, I keep getting besieged to move my projects from svn to git - to which I usually respond "Why, tell me what feature we need in git, that svn doesn't do?" I've yet to get an answer.

Re:Outlook 2016’s New POP3 Bug Deletes Your Emails by cesarb on Sunday February 28, 2016 @07:35AM (#11190769)
If you "keep getting besieged to move [your] projects from svn to git", I can guess that who is asking is probably downstream consumers of your projects. What they might actually be wanting:

- Familiarity. Everyone uses git nowadays; like it or not, svn projects are the odd ones out.

- Fast, offline querying of the project's history. With git, they have a full copy of the project's history in their local computer, while with svn, any query has to go to the server. This helps a lot when chasing regressions, or just when browsing the changes between one release and the other.

- Easy branching. Branches in git are more lightweight than branches in svn, and git's merge functionality is quite good. When they want to propose some change to your code, they can just create a branch in their local copy, make the changes they want, publish the branch somewhere, and ask you to merge it; this is made even easier by sites like github. With svn, unless they have an account in your svn server, they have to do it the old-fashioned way.

Re:Outlook 2016’s New POP3 Bug Deletes Your Emails by Aloha on Sunday February 28, 2016 @02:26PM (#11191983)
I'm effectively using SVN as a CMS in this case - its just an easy way to sync files between workstations.
Re:Outlook 2016’s New POP3 Bug Deletes Your Emails by supercoder on Sunday February 28, 2016 @05:40AM (#11190591)
Non centralized is probably the best one. But agree it's harder from there.
Re:Outlook 2016’s New POP3 Bug Deletes Your Emails by sk5t on Sunday February 28, 2016 @09:57PM (#11193385)
I'm not trying to be mean. If one is going to stick with an obsolete source control system--as an important part of one's work process--there should be a good reason for doing so; however, one cannot make such a justification based on ignorance of the alternatives unless the two hours to learn, e.g., git, cannot be spared and would not be recouped in future productivity.
Re:Outlook 2016’s New POP3 Bug Deletes Your Emails by to3m on Sunday February 28, 2016 @12:16PM (#11191434)
I don't know if they fixed VSS in later versions, but I used it in a team environment from 2000-2002, and heard of other people using it similarly even later than that (including for art assets as well as code...), seemingly without any problems.

As well as the oft-unjustly-maligned check in/check out model, two other things it has going for it are that administration is pretty easy and it has both a command line client and a GUI client. (Which might sound like a ridiculous thing to say, but I have used some systems that have one but not the other - hopefully very rare these days though.)

This isn't really a recommendation for it, though, unless they've put a huge amount of work into it over the past fifteen-odd years (which somehow I doubt).

To get the same check in/check out workflow, you could try Perforce (though I heard from somebody that did it on AWS that the initial setup can be a bit fiddly) or SVN (though check in/check out evidently isn't quite how it's designed to be used, because (a) this is not the default, and (b) the performance can be pretty crappy).

Re:Outlook 2016’s New POP3 Bug Deletes Your Emails by dec0dedab0de on Sunday February 28, 2016 @10:15AM (#11191067)
other than a very, very robust aversion to learning anything new.

I may have to borrow that line at my day job sometimes.

Re:Outlook 2016’s New POP3 Bug Deletes Your Emails by daniel-cussen on Sunday February 28, 2016 @01:21AM (#11190083)
Yeah, for real. People think that, like grease monkeys, people who work with computers, and like them, should have the latest and greatest whatever the hell app is going around. Because you know it's going around, like measles. Others, like worser diseases.

A friend and I, him no longer on Facebook, me without it at this point, both have stickies on our cameras all day that we peel off to talk on Facetime. And as we were chatting, he mentioned someone who was a power user but didn't know much. He was downright promiscuous with the software he used, just, terrible. He never even thought of reading a EULA, had every app that fit on his phone (while my friend and I want nothing to do with smartphones), knew how to use all the features...Perhaps we're slightly paranoid users, but it's these tiny religions that keep us from spilling our guts to the whole planet. And it happens, and there's no undo. I know what computers can do, and it's not fun to think about what happens when yours is commandeered. Especially if you look at the situation antagonistically and as a programmer.

I think of old applications, and old computers, the way I think of generic pills: you know what you're getting, the luster is gone from the competitor that once made it look like shit based on vaporware promises, you can trust it no problem, and it's super cheap. And you're used to it, you know the rules, you know how it works. New hardware is expensive, but new software is worse: you pay either in loss of data, highly-targeted advertising, price discrimination when you finally buy something, irresponsibility with data, worrying about getting hacked, getting hacked, countermeasures, getting spammed, or in a mundane but expensive way as with the $5 a month that Danish guy said every app should charge. But most apps just can't man up and charge you a fee, or tell you to go screw, instead, they play it sleazy, they want to traffic a tiny part of you.

Re:Outlook 2016’s New POP3 Bug Deletes Your Emails by thought_alarm on Sunday February 28, 2016 @01:11AM (#11190065)
> It's never failed me in 20 years. Right click, check out, right click checkin

Right click, branch, right click, merge, right click, tire fire, right click, throw computer out window.

Re:Outlook 2016’s New POP3 Bug Deletes Your Emails by matwood on Sunday February 28, 2016 @10:16AM (#11191071)
> I still use Visual Source Safe for my personal projects. It's never failed me in 20 years. Right click, check out, right click checkin. Perfect every time.

Wait! What?! Make sure you do not run out of disk space or do any of the other things that instantly corrupt your VSS repo. Hopefully you were being sarcastic.

Re:Outlook 2016’s New POP3 Bug Deletes Your Emails by TwoBit on Sunday February 28, 2016 @02:51AM (#11190250)
I'm amazed that you find VSS reliable. Everybody I've known who used it back in the 90s (including my team) had to dump it because it so easily got corrupted. Aside from git and mercurial, you can use Perforce personal for free.
Re:Outlook 2016’s New POP3 Bug Deletes Your Emails by raverbashing on Sunday February 28, 2016 @01:34AM (#11190107)
I believe you only use VSS because you never knew anything better (AND you work alone), because that's like cutting a steak with a butter knife
Re:Outlook 2016’s New POP3 Bug Deletes Your Emails by my5thaccount on Sunday February 28, 2016 @01:50AM (#11190135)
Wow, the vitriol is thick tonight. I also work in teams and like I said in the other comment, I use different flavors of version control on those projects.
Re:Outlook 2016’s New POP3 Bug Deletes Your Emails by raverbashing on Sunday February 28, 2016 @01:54AM (#11190143)
Ah now I saw your other comment

Well, to each their own I suppose

Re:Outlook 2016’s New POP3 Bug Deletes Your Emails by username223 on Sunday February 28, 2016 @12:54AM (#11190034)
> I almost totally agree. If it wasn't for security fixes, there would be no value in updating almost any software.

Software developers know this, which is why they maximize the scariness of all security fixes, and minimize your ability to separate security fixes from all other software changes. How much churn did you have to swallow to fix "algorithmic complexity attacks" you never saw, which would at worst result in a DoS? Did anyone actually attack your hash tables?