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Re:Scientists can’t agree whether salt is killing us by rsync on Thursday February 18, 2016 @09:57AM (#11126141)
"Currently the best way to consume food is to avoid addictive and highly processed food products and then trust your gut with the rest."

Allow me to suggest a further path forward that is superior to "trusting your gut":

Establish a regular, very high output exercise regime - incorporating both long duration aerobic/cardio and relatively intense resistance training.

Under such a regimen, you will notice what food does to you because you're pushing your physical state out to the edges. You will need to eat densely nutritious food and you will notice when you don't. It's quite striking.

An analogy: nobody notices a bad tank of gas, or slightly wrong octane in their toyota minivan. You do notice a bad tank of gas, or slightly wrong octane in a race car.

Become a racecar and you won't need to guess about food anymore.

Re:Scientists can’t agree whether salt is killing us by stdbrouw on Thursday February 18, 2016 @10:32AM (#11126435)
You do realize that what you're proposing is in no way supported by science but is merely your personal theory based on an analogy, right?
Re:Scientists can’t agree whether salt is killing us by rsync on Thursday February 18, 2016 @10:51AM (#11126579)
A system running at its limits is more sensitive to fluctuations in inputs.

That's as true for your body as it is for a nuclear reactor.

Re:Scientists can’t agree whether salt is killing us by Fargren on Thursday February 18, 2016 @11:33AM (#11126924)
Yes, you will certainly be aware of what it takes to keep running at that rythm. But that's not neccesarilly what is healthy.
Re:Scientists can’t agree whether salt is killing us by adrusi on Friday February 19, 2016 @12:19PM (#11134814)
So you accept that regular exercise is useful for understanding the physiological implications of the diet, but you question whether regular exercise is healthy?
Re:Scientists can’t agree whether salt is killing us by Fargren on Monday February 22, 2016 @06:37AM (#11150113)
No. I believe there is such a thing as excessive exercise, which I feel is what the post was describing. While under and excessive excessive your body will be stressed enough that it should be easy to see the effects of your diet, and so it would be relatively easy to optimize your diet for such a regime. But the diet that such a regime requires is not necessarily optimal (or good) for people with a more reasonable and healthy lifestyle.
Re:Scientists can’t agree whether salt is killing us by makmanalp on Thursday February 18, 2016 @01:24PM (#11127976)
What does this even mean? This is such an huge generalization that it seems it could be true or false depending on what example you pick.
Re:Scientists can’t agree whether salt is killing us by lesdeuxmagots on Thursday February 18, 2016 @02:17PM (#11128437)
Sounds like a justification for performance enhancing drugs.
Re:Scientists can’t agree whether salt is killing us by nommm-nommm on Thursday February 18, 2016 @10:24AM (#11126373)
Meh. When I was an athlete I had a horrible diet which consisted of mostly boxed pasta and I ate junk food every day. Didn't hurt my athletic ability noticeably.

I try hard to watch what I eat now.

Re:Scientists can’t agree whether salt is killing us by stdbrouw on Thursday February 18, 2016 @10:33AM (#11126445)
This was actually tested in a study last year, which found that cheeseburgers are just as good for recovery as expensive sports drinks: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/04/0...
Re:Scientists can’t agree whether salt is killing us by noam87 on Thursday February 18, 2016 @12:00PM (#11127193)
This bogus study keeps getting cited and misrepresented:

> Gatorade, chewable energy cubes, organic peanut butter and power bars.

All of those are junk food. Drinking a large bottle of Gatorade is exactly equivalent in sugar content to drinking a can of pop, energy and power bars are also basically crap and sugar with some "vitamins" or "soy protein" added.

So yeah... this study found that eating one form of junk food is no different than eating another form of (cleverly marketed) junk food.

> Eleven males completed two experimental trials in a randomized, counterbalanced order. Each trial included a 90-min glycogen depletion ride followed by a 4-hr recovery period.

Wow, such thorough and newsworthy research: eleven males worked out twice for 90 minutes and ate two different types of crap.

This is just another example of the sorry state of modern clickbait research.

An alarming number of studies out there are nothing but noise, especially in the medical fields, where it does actual damage. Here's a good talk on this issue: https://youtu.be/GPYzY9I78CI "Reproducible Research: True or False?"

Re:Scientists can’t agree whether salt is killing us by CountSessine on Thursday February 18, 2016 @05:53PM (#11130019)
Wow, such thorough and newsworthy research: eleven males worked out twice for 90 minutes and ate two different types of crap. This is just another example of the sorry state of modern clickbait research.

This is peer-reviewed research that appeared in the International Journal of Sport Nutrition and Exercise Metabolism. Perhaps, as an esteemed expert in sport nutrition yourself, you could approach the journal and offer your services as a reviewer, given how strongly you feel about this.

Re:Scientists can’t agree whether salt is killing us by noam87 on Thursday February 18, 2016 @09:21PM (#11131086)
I linked to an hour long lecture from a domain expert who offers a thorough, evidence based critique of modern research practices in the health sciences. I hope you watch it, because it raises important problems in current research practices that many are not aware of (or not taking seriously enough).

Either way, I resent such an empty appeal to authority on your end. As intelligent, educated adults I'd like to think we're capable of arriving at our own conclusions. One can be critical of someone's methods without sharing their domain-specific expertise. Science is not meant to be an old boy's club, it's a communal activity; it belongs to everyone and it's up to everyone to scrutinize.

That's not how science works no matter who reviewed what. It doesn't matter if Francis Crick himself was brought back from the dead to review this paper: until this line of research is investigated further, experiments are reproduced, modified, and analyzed from every reasonable angle, the data is meaningless.

Perfect example, straight from the article:

> “We found that the published literature bears little imprint of an ongoing controversy, but rather contains two almost distinct and disparate lines of scholarship.”

> This finding arose from their review of ten "systematic reviews" of the evidence that have been conducted. In systematic reviews, scientists collect all of the primary research on a topic and, in effect, weight it on the whole. But there appears to have been widespread disagreement about what research papers ought to be included in a systematic review. If a research paper was selected for one systematic review, it was more than likely not selected for another, the researchers found.

Thd researchers choose a narrative and stick to it. i.e: Domain expertise is the problem. If it's not up to outsiders to point this out, then who?

The current trend of careerism and domain myopia, this pressure to churn out original research sausage factory style (again, presented in great detail in the talk I linked to) is not science, it's actively hurtful to science, and actively hurtful to people whose health, even lives, depends on this research.

I personally have gone through the medical system for reasons I won't go into, and have seen first hand the very real consequences of good and bad science, which is why I feel so passionate about these matters.

I also know a number of bright individuals who have left the world of academic research due to their disillusionment with the system. There is a very real brain drain going on, and God bless those who stick it out. But if more outsiders (and disgruntled insiders and ex-insiders) don't speak out more, people will continue to get hurt (many already have been -- it's not difficult to find articles and books on this subject). This isn't pure maths or theoretical physics, this is medicine; and we must hold it to the highest levels of scrutiny.

Re:Scientists can’t agree whether salt is killing us by bgilroy26 on Thursday February 18, 2016 @01:21PM (#11127940)
You can use Gatorade when you're on the bench waiting to get back in the game. They are different kinds of recovery.
Re:Scientists can’t agree whether salt is killing us by brianwawok on Thursday February 18, 2016 @10:26AM (#11126391)
How old were you on the junkfood diet? As I got older I literally cannot sleep at night if I eat crap. As a teenager it did not matter.
Re:Scientists can’t agree whether salt is killing us by nommm-nommm on Thursday February 18, 2016 @10:58AM (#11126636)
I started watching my diet in my 20s. I started doing so because I didn't want to harm myself long term and I started gaining weight. I still go back to my boxed pasta diet once in a while (I grew up on the stuff! I love it!) and it doesn't effect me in a noticeable way. I'm no longer an athlete though.

Actually that is not true, it does effect my poop. I strongly perfer pooping on a veggie rich diet!

Thankfully getting married has helped my diet. My spouse leaves for work for extended periods sometimes which is when my diet usually slips.

Re:Scientists can’t agree whether salt is killing us by brianwawok on Thursday February 18, 2016 @11:02AM (#11126664)
Boxed pasta is not the worst thing in the world though, it's like a 5/10. You can generally do far worse, say french fries and slushies and Oreos.
Re:Scientists can’t agree whether salt is killing us by jtuente on Thursday February 18, 2016 @01:53PM (#11128222)
> You can generally do far worse, say french fries and slushies and Oreos.

Yes, the breakfast of morbidly obese champions.

Re:Scientists can’t agree whether salt is killing us by brianwawok on Thursday February 18, 2016 @02:01PM (#11128305)
Ha ha ha, I did not mean them combined but not that you mention it...
Re:Scientists can’t agree whether salt is killing us by DannoHung on Thursday February 18, 2016 @12:29PM (#11127518)
That's not true at all. http://blogs.wsj.com/health/2008/08/13/the-michael-phelps-di...

In this case, he's fucking Mr Fusion.

You probably mean something like... train for muscle growth or something or to run (not win) a marathon.

Re:Scientists can’t agree whether salt is killing us by jtuente on Thursday February 18, 2016 @01:49PM (#11128198)
Phelps is more analogous to having a nitrous injection system in a super-tuned competitive racecar, as opposed to a typical high-powered sports car.
Re:Scientists can’t agree whether salt is killing us by brianwawok on Thursday February 18, 2016 @10:20AM (#11126334)
This is true and an angle I have not thought about before (though I have first hand experienced it).

As an example I don't think good quality non-factory-farmed red meat is bad for a person, despite a fair amount of research on both sides of the topic. But since switching from couch me to exercise-a-holic me.. My relationship with red meat has changed. Had a grass fed burger Monday for the first time in a while, was up all night. Did not agree with me so much.

On the other hand, 1 beer or whatever amount of salt I consume seems to have no impact on me the next morning - happy to hope out of bed at 7 and go run.

Humans are not racecars so not sure I buy the analogy as given.. I wonder what the real reason for this is? Maybe a better broscience guess is that so much of your energy is devoted to repairing "damage" you did the to body during the day, your body has less spare energy to devote to processing crap.

Re:Scientists can’t agree whether salt is killing us by e40 on Thursday February 18, 2016 @11:08AM (#11126718)
incorporating both long duration aerobic/cardio and relatively intense resistance training

And there are studies that show walking is just as good, and it certainly wears down the body less than your alternative.

Re:Scientists can’t agree whether salt is killing us by dpark on Thursday February 18, 2016 @11:41AM (#11126996)
> And there are studies that show walking is just as good,

I'm not sure I've ever actually seen one of these studies that show walking is as good for overall health as strenuous exercise. It's hard for me to believe, mostly because I do a ton of walking and find personally that the benefits are nowhere close. But also, "walking is just as good" seems mostly to be the rallying cry of out of shape people who don't want to exercise because it's hard.

> and it certainly wears down the body less than your alternative.

That's an odd way to put it. Exercise doesn't "wear down the body". It builds it up, quite literally if we're talking about resistance training. But even aerobic exercise builds up the cardiovascular system measurably.

Re:Scientists can’t agree whether salt is killing us by e40 on Thursday February 18, 2016 @02:56PM (#11128783)
That's an odd way to put it. Exercise doesn't "wear down the body".

Running puts tremendous stress on knees and feet. I've not been able to run since I was in my 30's due to my knees just not being able to take it anymore. (I'm not overweight.)

In fact, I walk 4+ miles a day, much up and down hills, and just that has pushed my feet pretty hard. About 5 years ago I had to switch to MBT's because I was essentially unable to walk in regular shoes. And it was a complete fluke that I found those shoes.

Re:Scientists can’t agree whether salt is killing us by dpark on Friday February 19, 2016 @05:02PM (#11136979)
> Running puts tremendous stress on knees and feet.

Of course it does. That doesn't mean it "wears down" the body in a meaningful sense. The body heals. Bones get stronger with use. So do muscles. Even connective tissue gets stronger with use. Cartilage might not (I'm not sure) but heals. It doesn't just grind down from use, or professional runners would all have severe arthritis at 25. Sedentary people still get arthritis.

> About 5 years ago I had to switch to MBT's because I was essentially unable to walk in regular shoes

I'm not sure you're a representative sample. It's not normal to be unable to walk in regular shoes unless you're elderly.

Re:Scientists can’t agree whether salt is killing us by rsync on Thursday February 18, 2016 @11:58AM (#11127158)
"And there are studies that show walking is just as good, and it certainly wears down the body less than your alternative."

I have seen those studies and I tend to agree with them. My own personal experience supports the notion that walking is extremely healthful and provides almost all of the benefits you have in mind.

That is, if you're using measures like "do I feel good" "do I look good" "have I kept off those 20 pounds".

I however believe that there are more important measures: "can I run a few miles for help" "can I perform CPR for 10 minutes continuously" "can I lift and manipulate this charged hoseline".

I owe it to you and your family to be able to do these things. I measure your worth, to some degree, on your ability to do these things for me and my family. I don't care about what you look like or how many steps you did today.

Re:Scientists can’t agree whether salt is killing us by nommm-nommm on Thursday February 18, 2016 @01:17PM (#11127910)
You're essentially saying the disabled are worth less than the able bodied.
Re:Scientists can’t agree whether salt is killing us by notlefthanded on Thursday February 18, 2016 @03:14PM (#11128930)
Only in the context of being physically able to assist someone else. To name an extreme, I doubt he's saying that Stephen Hawking is 'worth less' than a given able bodied person.

I think in this case the charitable reading would be to not caveat it with ceteris paribus

Re:Scientists can’t agree whether salt is killing us by agumonkey on Thursday February 18, 2016 @02:25PM (#11128540)
I wouldn't emphasize on high output. But I'd bet 1000$ that regular physical activity will shift your diet back to healthy. After running I never crave sodas, I want raw food and water, lots of it.