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Re:Silicon Valley and Black Coders: Howard University fights... by devalier on Thursday January 21, 2016 @09:49AM (#10945507)
Computer programming is one of the most cognitively demanding professions in existence. Ability to program correlates pretty highly with cognitive test scores, such as the SAT Math. If you look at the top scorers on such tests in America, only about 1% are black. The ratio of black engineers in Silicon Valley matches what you would expect based on the test scores.

To see it visually, this is the bell curve based on millions of test results: http://i.imgur.com/zB1oENS.png?1 There are very simply very few black people in the far-right portion. This is not even a disputed fact (the dispute is mainly over why the curve is skewed and if it can be fixed; the existence of the skew is incontrovertible).

This was at least partly because of the way companies recruited: From 2001 to 2009, more than 20 percent of all black computer science graduates attended an historically black school, according to federal statistics—yet the Valley wasn’t looking for candidates at these institutions.

The average SAT scores at Howard are thoroughly mediocre, on par with second and tier state colleges, and you would not expect an elite school to concentrate on Howard, any more than you would expect it to concentrate on Southern Illinois University or the like. The only reason an elite company would recruit at Howard is for diversity reasons.

Foreman is strong-willed, which sometimes gets him in trouble. “I just chalked it up to soft skills, I guess,” he says, explaining that he and his interviewer had clashed. Pratt says he’d been “furious” to learn that Foreman had been passed over. Other companies said no, too.

So was he a good programmer or not? How do we the readers know that he good do the job and was passed up unfairly?

The phenomenon, “stereotype threat,” is getting more attention in the Valley, and companies have begun training employees to be aware of it.

The idea of stereotype threat is extremely dubious - http://isteve.blogspot.com/2012/10/john-list-on-virtual-none...

“She doesn’t fit the profile of what people think of when they think of engineers. Even though people think of Silicon Valley as a big meritocracy, I don’t think that’s how it works.”

There are now a number of companies that do automated programming interviews -- Starfighter, Hacker Rank, etc. Do these manage to overcome stereotype threat? Do these blind interviews allow through more African-Americans? Before throwing around slanderous accusations, one should actually show that Silicon Valley is treating people with the same programming ability differently.

The sad thing is that these tech companies cannot just admit, "We don't recruit at Howard because the SAT scores are not there." Rather these companies have to pretend that anyone can be a great programmer if they just put in the work, and a lot of people end up with false hopes that only get crushed.

Re:Silicon Valley and Black Coders: Howard University fights... by ebola1717 on Thursday January 21, 2016 @02:44PM (#10947744)
Wow, I'm sorry, but programming is not that demanding. Theoretical CS work can be, but the typical programmer is working on maintaining a crud app, especially as a junior developer.
Re:Silicon Valley and Black Coders: Howard University fights... by geebee on Thursday January 21, 2016 @06:31PM (#10949416)
Is it just me? I find it unbelievably demanding. I think writing even relatively simple web apps almost always turns into something mind numbingly difficult. The amount of extremely dense material you have to read and ingest, the number of things you have to stitch together, all of which claim to be easy but in fact require deeper understanding because they never quite do what you need them to, the abstraction of what you have to understand… and then, on top of it, almost nothing is greenfield, so you have to go down a really deep and dark rabbit hole of someone else's highly intricate logic.

What can I say? I consider it to be one of the hardest things I've done. I have no idea how people find it easy, but clearly some do.

A lot of the horrendous complexity in our field comes from churn. But hey whatever the vector, it is (and of course this is just my opinion) hellaciously demanding.

Just a quick note, my post here is intended as a narrow response to the specific claim that programming is not demanding, not the general comment tree.

Re:Silicon Valley and Black Coders: Howard University fights... by sotojuan on Thursday January 21, 2016 @03:19PM (#10947997)
I'd say only the interviews have become demanding!
Re:Silicon Valley and Black Coders: Howard University fights... by alistproducer2 on Thursday January 21, 2016 @10:20AM (#10945730)
Your "sources" are dubious (at best). Why don't you link to some studies that back up your imgur you got from chimpout or some other fine upstanding white nationalist blog.
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Re:Silicon Valley and Black Coders: Howard University fights... by KingMob on Thursday January 21, 2016 @03:25PM (#10948039)
The article you linked to failed to factor in stereotype threat, which suggests the authors have no idea how accurate the IQ test really is. Just because you're not asking questions like "Does the salad fork go on the outside or the inside?" doesn't mean the test is bias-free.
Re:Silicon Valley and Black Coders: Howard University fights... by alistproducer2 on Thursday January 21, 2016 @03:56PM (#10948266)
The book this "evidence" comes from is the much derided "Bell Curve." The poster is a HN racist troll. I checked his comment history and he pretty much only posts stuff similar to this.
Re:Silicon Valley and Black Coders: Howard University fights... by devalier on Thursday January 21, 2016 @04:14PM (#10948426)
I gave a link to stereotype threat earlier - http://isteve.blogspot.com/2012/10/john-list-on-virtual-none... And keep in mind, even if the studies were replicable, the studies did not even show that stereotype threat shows up in the real world, or that it causes the one standard deviation gap. What the original study showed was that on a non-meaningful test, if the professor suggests a stereotype, the gap in test scores grows bigger than one standard deviation.

I think the whole idea of stereotype threat is ridiculous. Just because of a stereotype I'm going to get dozens of questions wrong on the SAT? That just does not make any sense. (And now that we have a black president who was from Harvard Law, wouldn't we see average LSAT scores start to converge, surely there would be less of stereotype against black people in law).

Re:Silicon Valley and Black Coders: Howard University fights... by dang on Thursday January 21, 2016 @04:14PM (#10948424)
HN accounts aren't supposed to be used just for ideological purposes. HN is a community, and the threads are conversations. That dynamic isn't served when someone shows up only to post lengthy, prepared screeds on tendentious topics.
Re:Silicon Valley and Black Coders: Howard University fights... by devalier on Thursday January 21, 2016 @05:19PM (#10948934)
If the top article on the Hacker News home page contradicts the evidence and the data that I have read, what am I supposed to do? I did not paste in a pre-written screed. I have read a lot on this subject, so I had a bunch of links and sources at my fingertips. It seems to me that posting as someone who has read a lot on this issue, and who can cite sources, is a much greater net contribution to the discussion than otherwise.

And yeah, I understand that my particular account has an ideological bent to it. I wish one account could fully represent who I am. But I am a active HN member with a long history of posts on all sorts of issues. But for obvious reasons, in cases where I believe the truth is highly politically incorrect, I have to post on a different account. I do try to respect the spirit of the guidelines, but I am not sure what I should do differently going forward.

Re:Silicon Valley and Black Coders: Howard University fights... by alistproducer2 on Thursday January 21, 2016 @01:03PM (#10947001)
The very idea that you can abstract IQ from socio-economic status has no basis in science. The idea that IQ is a measure of intrinsic intelligence is also not accepted. There's a reason race is not accepted as a biological handicap anywhere but in white supremacy circles and it's not political correctness.
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Re:Silicon Valley and Black Coders: Howard University fights... by dang on Thursday January 21, 2016 @04:12PM (#10948406)
> the 3 asshats that downvoted me

Please don't do this; the HN guidelines ask you not to.

Also, on (understandably) emotional topics, it's best if you represent your view more substantively and less angrily. People often downvote the latter kind of comment even when they agree with it.

Re:Silicon Valley and Black Coders: Howard University fights... by devalier on Thursday January 21, 2016 @05:37PM (#10949058)
All human fields of study are very messy, they are not precise sciences in the way that Newton's laws are.

IQ tests are designed to be excellent proxies for what we generally understand to be intelligence. They can be better or worse proxies depending on the circumstance. In the particular case of testing black Americans, the IQ tests are quite predictive, and the world looks like what we would expect, if the tests were indeed actually testing intelligence. What is your evidence that IQ tests are poor proxies in the case of testing African-Americans?

A great deal of data seems to show that IQ still is very predictive, even when accounting for socio-economic status. That is exactly what they were originally designed for. SAT tests for instance were designed to find students from poorer and more marginalized backgrounds who nonetheless were still very smart and could achieve if given the chance. This is all covered in the Bell Curve, and well some professors thought that Murray exaggerated the degree of certainty, no one showed that his data was false, nor that the conclusion was false.

Believe it or not, I used to be much more in your camp, but after reading a bunch of sources, including the Bell Curve, Gould's the Mismeasure of Man, dozens of papers from scientists contesting the Bell Curve, responses to those papers, and so on, I came to the conclusions I did. Personally, I would much prefer if the evidence had said otherwise. I don't like being called a racist asshat. But given the evidence is what it is, I don't think it is fair to accuse Silicon Valley of judging people by race over merit, simply based on hiring statistics.

race is not accepted as a biological handicap

That's not an accurate phrasing of my view. If a black person has a 130IQ, they have a 130IQ and their race is not a handicap. No person should view their race as a handicap, or be personally stereotyped based on their race. It is just statistically less likely that a black person has a 130IQ. And that was what the original charge was based on -- the statistical underrepresentation of black people in Silicon Valley.