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Re:“Subject: Urgent Warning” by madaxe_again on Tuesday January 19, 2016 @09:44AM (#10931028)
Ah, this sort of thing is as old as the moon.

We run an eCommerce platform, have a variety of clients using it, they have a number of customers. At least once a week we get an accusation either from a client or an end-user of some outlandish nefarious behaviour, usually due to some complete lack of understanding of the nature of technology.

Way back when, we responded, tried to help, tried to explain, but it tends to be the case that if someone has made their mind up, they've made their mind up, and anything you say can and will be used against you - confirmation bias is a harsh mistress.

The best response is usually no response, I'm afraid to say. It's a drain on your time, they won't be any the wiser unless you're prepared to sink serious time into educating a stranger, and more often than not responding results in escalation, and people doing stupid things like involving lawyers and law enforcement.

Case in point: About six years ago, we had an older guy phone us up frothing about how we'd hacked his wife's computer and she'd accidentally bought something from one of our clients. We explained that it would be hard to accidentally enter your address and credit card details, and that if they didn't want the order they should contact the merchant, not the web developer (they clicked our "ecommerce by" link in the footer of the client site - we don't do that any more!). We thought that was that. A week later we got a stern phone call from an ombudsman who wanted to know why we were ignoring the distance selling rules and taking advantage of old people... and they didn't understand that we weren't a merchant, didn't place an order on their behalf, either - so months of time were wasted, and we narrowly avoided ending up in court over a non-issue.

Anyway. When you have a conversation with an idiot, nobody watching can tell which one of you is the idiot.

Re:“Subject: Urgent Warning” by JoshTriplett on Tuesday January 19, 2016 @10:38AM (#10931403)
> Anyway. When you have a conversation with an idiot, nobody watching can tell which one of you is the idiot.

A friend of mine who works as a college professor has a fun approach to deal with the kinds of random cranks who contact him out of the blue seeking someone to validate their wild Time-Cube-style theories and "research": he responds to each one by providing an introduction to the previous one. Apparently, he received followups from some of them afterward saying how much they appreciated the introduction and how much it helped them.

Re:“Subject: Urgent Warning” by EdwardCoffin on Tuesday January 19, 2016 @10:52AM (#10931476)
This idea terrifies me even more than it amuses me. The notion of the long-term influence that could be gained by a network of cooperating Time-Cube-style theorists is enough to give me nightmares.
Re:“Subject: Urgent Warning” by fab13n on Tuesday January 19, 2016 @11:42AM (#10931845)
Yet helping crackpots (along with every other motivated people) find each other is unavoidably part of what the Internet does. I believe the good coming out of it outweighs the bad, but you're definitely not the only one being afraid.

It seems that many of those scared are those who've learned in a time of knowledge scarcity (it was difficult to find any information at all on any subject. It took at least a trip to a library and some ability to search the index). Today the challenge is to critically navigate in an overdose of information, a lot of it complete rubbish. The hard part is about filtering out, not finding material.

Now what scares me is that, at least in my country, many teachers haven't realised that the times of knowledge scarcity are gone. They tell student that using Wikipedia is cheating, instead of teaching them how to understand and navigate its (wonderful) citation system, to properly assess information quality.

(note: I suspect your comment to be tongue-in-cheek, but I felt like interpreting it 1st degree anyway)

Re:“Subject: Urgent Warning” by EdwardCoffin on Tuesday January 19, 2016 @01:28PM (#10932713)
I was only half tongue-in-cheek. I'm not really that worried about obvious crackpots having an effect directly. It is entirely plausible though that they could have an indirect effect. If banded together they could reach more of the public with crackpot ideas, and even if the public generally recognizes these ideas as crackpot, they will have succeeded in shifting the Overton window, enabling public acceptance of less obvious crackpot theories.

I am worried though about the (further) rise of anti-intellectualism and anti-science. The effects of this should be pretty clear just by reading the news. This does worry me more than the concerns you've described.

Re:“Subject: Urgent Warning” by mikeash on Tuesday January 19, 2016 @04:26PM (#10934174)
If one were to look at my Facebook feed at any random time and imagine it representative, one would come away with the impression that vaccines are an evil plot by pharmaceutical companies to make money, that airplane contrails a.k.a. chemtrails are an unknown but surely nefarious conspiracy by the government involving mass quantities of psychoactive chemicals dumped into the air, that "natural" healing using tea and crystals and such is way more effective than doctors and hospitals and pharmaceuticals, and plenty more along those lines.

My mother is deeply into this stuff, and I have some friends through her who are lovely people aside from the part where they believe in this stuff. They don't make up a large proportion of my Facebook friends, but some of them are very loud about their beliefs.

Now imagine if you don't care a whole lot about this stuff one way or another, you get your shots on schedule because that's what people do, you never considered government conspiracies because the news never mentioned them, and you see the doctor when you get too sick because that's what everybody does. Then you become exposed to all this stuff, written very confidently and seeming to be backed up with solid facts, charismatic people, and high production values.

I think there's a good chance you'd start believing it!

Re:“Subject: Urgent Warning” by DanBC on Tuesday January 19, 2016 @11:20AM (#10931676)
See also the Freemen on the land who pass incoherent legal information on to each other.
Re:“Subject: Urgent Warning” by cristoperb on Tuesday January 19, 2016 @12:20PM (#10932131)
(American readers may be more familiar with the similar "Sovereign Citizen movement": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_citizen_movement)
Re:“Subject: Urgent Warning” by blowski on Tuesday January 19, 2016 @01:24PM (#10932686)
Re:“Subject: Urgent Warning” by david-given on Tuesday January 19, 2016 @01:37PM (#10932799)
...I got halfway through that before realising that the author was actually serious rather than using snark!
Re:“Subject: Urgent Warning” by Johnwbh on Tuesday January 19, 2016 @11:29AM (#10931744)
Most people like that really just need someone to talk to, so introducing them to eachother solves both their issues neatly
Re:“Subject: Urgent Warning” by weinzierl on Tuesday January 19, 2016 @03:53PM (#10933930)
This reminds me of "The Three Christs of Ypsilanti":

    Rokeach brought together three men who each claimed to be Jesus 
    Christ and confronted them with one another's conflicting claims, 
    while encouraging them to interact personally as a support group.
    [...]
    While initially the three patients quarreled over who was holier and 
    reached the point of physical altercation, they eventually each 
    explained away the other two as being patients with a mental 
    disability in a hospital, or dead and being operated by machines.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Three_Christs_of_Ypsilanti
Re:“Subject: Urgent Warning” by jordigh on Tuesday January 19, 2016 @10:52AM (#10931479)
That seems a bit... I want to say cruel, but maybe it's not? I'm sure most of these mathematical cranks have various kinds of mental illnesses. Perhaps referring them to each other is creating an ad-hoc support group, or perhaps it's just ridiculing them.
Re:“Subject: Urgent Warning” by kelvin0 on Tuesday January 19, 2016 @01:05PM (#10932507)
Agreed. However, at some point in time remember Galileo was also called a crank. Be careful in that respect.
Re:“Subject: Urgent Warning” by TeMPOraL on Tuesday January 19, 2016 @01:27PM (#10932712)
Indeed. He was totally a crank, and also an asshole (which is what got him under house arrest). He was rightfully rejected by contemporary scientific community for pushing a model that didn't even agree with empirical data about planetary motions they've accumulated so far, as opposed to the commonly accepted models.

Yes, be careful in that respect, because the story of Galileo is one of the common historical misconceptions.

EDIT: Sources - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10878748.

Re:“Subject: Urgent Warning” by kelvin0 on Tuesday January 19, 2016 @01:51PM (#10932923)
Could you please give me some citations, papers or any reference? Was he not an advocate of the Heliocentric model accepted today, that almost got him killed? Please correct my historical misconceptions.
Re:“Subject: Urgent Warning” by TeMPOraL on Tuesday January 19, 2016 @02:53PM (#10933447)
Added a link to sources to my original comment.
Re:“Subject: Urgent Warning” by kelvin0 on Wednesday January 20, 2016 @08:41AM (#10937942)
Will definitely be reading that thanks. However this does not change my initial point: some forward thinking individuals are ahead of their time and are sometimes ostracized for the wrong reasons.
Re:“Subject: Urgent Warning” by jordigh on Tuesday January 19, 2016 @02:01PM (#10933008)
I agree that some crank-looking people end up being Ramanujan, but the vast majority are not. When you look at the lunacy that most cranks put out, you start to see that there is a sea of weirdness out there, and doubtlessly a lot of mental illness. The old http://crank.net still seems to be up (hah! "powered by GNU m4"), so take a stroll to get a sample of the common thing that maths and physics profs have to wade through in their inboxes.
Re:“Subject: Urgent Warning” by cmurf on Tuesday January 19, 2016 @04:38PM (#10934260)
Keep in mind for the vast majority of human existence thus far, humans sometimes just flip their shit and become untrustworthy. So some percentage of humans always expecting this from everyone is probable. So which is the mental illness, expecting a fellow primate is or will become bezerk, or that fellow primates non-deterministically do in fact go bezerk?
Re:“Subject: Urgent Warning” by kelvin0 on Tuesday January 19, 2016 @02:48PM (#10933414)
I have no doubt the signal to noise ratio is disconcerting. Not all shells contain precious perls...
Re:“Subject: Urgent Warning” by rasz_pl on Tuesday January 19, 2016 @01:38PM (#10932809)
"In the late 1950s, three men who identified as the Son of God were forced to live together in a mental hospital."

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/201...

doesnt end well

Re:“Subject: Urgent Warning” by kbenson on Tuesday January 19, 2016 @12:26PM (#10932188)
In the case or people threatening legal action against you, putting them in touch with each other may not be the wisest move.
Re:“Subject: Urgent Warning” by smithkl42 on Tuesday January 19, 2016 @12:10PM (#10932060)
This is basically the plot of Umberto Eco's book "Foucault's Pendulum".
Re:“Subject: Urgent Warning” by rrauenza on Tuesday January 19, 2016 @01:36PM (#10932783)
Ah, I would swear something similar was mentioned in Simon Singh's Fermat's Last Theorem. ...Perhaps done by a mathematician who was a referee for the prize.

Anyone here recall?

Re:“Subject: Urgent Warning” by Arnt on Tuesday January 19, 2016 @11:16AM (#10931650)
The usenet oracle is alive and well!
Re:“Subject: Urgent Warning” by Piskvorrr on Wednesday January 20, 2016 @03:03AM (#10936623)
No grovel! ZOT
Re:“Subject: Urgent Warning” by FredFredrickson on Tuesday January 19, 2016 @02:26PM (#10933229)
This is both ingenious and hilarious. The best kind of solution, in my opinion.
Re:“Subject: Urgent Warning” by xlayn on Tuesday January 19, 2016 @09:59AM (#10931137)
"When you have a conversation with an idiot, nobody watching can tell which one of you is the idiot".

They are not idiots, they are average people, tech is complex, I wonder if people who have to be told or explain things to represent a market to attend?

Imagine, something were you call a number ask for something to be bought; later someone go picking up the money, you perform the purchase and you later deliver.

No credit cards, no complex thing to go over.

Re:“Subject: Urgent Warning” by madaxe_again on Tuesday January 19, 2016 @10:04AM (#10931182)
If you bellow at a stranger because you don't understand something, you're an idiot, sorry.

I'd like to hope an "average" person would not gloss over gaps in their knowledge and jump to a hostile conclusion.

In your scenario, say you're the phone company - would you think it reasonable if the customer who called in your example blames you for their having made a call and placed an order, because the phone line must have made the call itself and faked the customer's voice?

Re:“Subject: Urgent Warning” by cookiecaper on Tuesday January 19, 2016 @10:24AM (#10931308)
>If you bellow at a stranger because you don't understand something, you're an idiot, sorry.

To be fair, the email included in the OP is not really bellowing. She's politely explaining that she found his contact information inside the documentation distributed with the app, and providing screenshots as proof. I think a simple explanation that the name is included only due to technicalities of copyright law and that there is no direct involvement whatsoever is sufficient. After that reply, there is no need to respond further, and almost all lawyers will immediately understand and refuse to proceed with a case.

It should also be noted that hosting an ecommerce platform is a lot different from being one of the many low-level libraries employed by the application. It's not necessarily unreasonable to expect an ecommerce processor or host to have reasonable fraud detection schemes in place, and it's certainly plausible that some lawyers would consider suing the ecommerce vendor (especially if the company makes money).

Re:“Subject: Urgent Warning” by elorant on Tuesday January 19, 2016 @11:47AM (#10931894)
Please keep in mind that Facebook owns Instagram and these are big companies that you likely don’t want to have a trail of evidence that you are a part of an Instagram and Spotify hacking ring.

This sounds like bellowing. It's borderline blackmail. Help me with my request or else I make sure Facebook knows what a scumbag you are.

The funny thing about this whole story is that she's not contacting him because she thinks he works at Instagram, which would be an understandable misconception, but instead she thinks he's with the hacking team. You have to be completely imbecile to think of villains answering with their real names.

Re:“Subject: Urgent Warning” by stcredzero on Wednesday January 20, 2016 @01:41PM (#10940294)
I'd like to hope an "average" person would not gloss over gaps in their knowledge and jump to a hostile conclusion.

This is what many "average" people do, and people have built businesses and political careers out of this.

Re:“Subject: Urgent Warning” by xlayn on Tuesday January 19, 2016 @10:14AM (#10931254)
I understand your point, I'm just presenting one of several possible approaches/points of view:

-Defensive: Remove links to: "made by"

-Reactive: Handle the situation every time it appears.

-Proactive: See if this represents an opportunity for you and approach the market.

-Not responding.

Edit: format and form.

Re:“Subject: Urgent Warning” by rakoo on Tuesday January 19, 2016 @11:10AM (#10931602)
> If you bellow at a stranger because you don't understand something, you're an idiot, sorry.

If you think everyone has to know everything before seeking help, then you are the idiot, sorry.

The woman probably doesn't know what a software is, other than a "Download" button on a website and an icon on the toolbar. Do you expect those people to differentiate between the software and the libraries underneath ?

Of course she doesn't understand, but she doesn't know she doesn't understand. That's the very source of the problem, and assuming they're idiot for not having spent the hundreds of hours necessary to understand what we're talking about is ludicrous.

Re:“Subject: Urgent Warning” by conistonwater on Tuesday January 19, 2016 @11:17AM (#10931656)
You missed the point of that comment. The emphasis is on bellow.
Re:“Subject: Urgent Warning” by mwcampbell on Tuesday January 19, 2016 @11:20AM (#10931675)
But Daniel replied once with an explanation of why his name was in the software credits, and the user persisted in blaming him for her problems.
Re:“Subject: Urgent Warning” by ghaff on Tuesday January 19, 2016 @12:21PM (#10932145)
Yes, but she probably didn't really understand his explanation. Look, I get that some people are, from my point of view, obtuse at best. I've had people convinced that I had some affiliation that I didn't or that I added them to some mailing list that I didn't (and unable to comprehend that they could follow the unsubscribe link to get off it). But they're not necessarily idiots. I've provided enough technical support over the years to family (iPad is the best gift, for me, I gave ever) to appreciate that many otherwise bright people really just don't understand how this tech works.
Re:“Subject: Urgent Warning” by Cthulhu_ on Tuesday January 19, 2016 @11:07AM (#10931572)
> If you bellow at a stranger because you don't understand something, you're an idiot, sorry.

But the thing is, does the bellower know they don't understand something? Few people are mature enough (especially when angry) to admit they really don't understand something (and this is probably prevalent in software development circles / communities, too)

Re:“Subject: Urgent Warning” by hawkice on Tuesday January 19, 2016 @11:09AM (#10931584)
I'm not sure being ignorant of your own ignorance is enough to promote yourself out of 'idiot' status.

I don't think these people are dumb, just frustrated. But your phrasing was curious to me.

Re:“Subject: Urgent Warning” by disillusioned on Tuesday January 19, 2016 @12:05PM (#10932026)
A mark of intelligence is the ability to be objective about what you do and don't know. If I don't understand something, I don't jump down someone's throat based on the limited information I have and try to extrapolate from there. I try to learn more about the issue, listen to experts, evaluate the merits of their argument to the best of my ability, and form an opinion.
Re:“Subject: Urgent Warning” by brenschluss on Tuesday January 19, 2016 @01:08PM (#10932539)
I agree. But I'd also say that it requires a bit of domain knowledge to know what you don't know.

That is to say: I know what I don't know in the fields that I study/practice in. I don't know what I don't know about the fields I don't.

Re:“Subject: Urgent Warning” by mikeash on Tuesday January 19, 2016 @12:55PM (#10932433)
"But the thing is, does the bellower know they don't understand something?"

No, they don't, that's what makes them an idiot.

A non-idiot doesn't have to know everything, but they do need to be aware of what they don't know.

Re:“Subject: Urgent Warning” by overgard on Tuesday January 19, 2016 @11:31AM (#10931757)
> They are not idiots,

They ARE idiots, but not because they don't know tech. They're idiots making strong accusations without having any idea what they're talking about or any evidence.

People finding scapegoats because they're afraid of the unknown is how we historically ended up with things like the witch trials.

Naiveté is fine, not everyone can know everything, but this sort of aggressive ignorance shouldn't be even remotely humored.

Re:“Subject: Urgent Warning” by elorant on Tuesday January 19, 2016 @10:16AM (#10931261)
Senior people who have a hard time understanding technology is one thing. A photographer who uses computers for her job but doesn’t get to understand why a software developer’s name appears in some third party services is a totally different issue. The second case isn’t even about using a service or a product. It’s about understanding intellectual property. His name is there because both services wanted to credit him for his work. How fucking difficult is to understand that? In the same context if I see her name on the photographs of the hotel I happened to stay the other night I should contact her in case I want something from the hotel?

I know it sounds elitist but there are people out there who are completely morons. We have to get used to it.

Re:“Subject: Urgent Warning” by mikeash on Tuesday January 19, 2016 @10:18AM (#10931268)
Part of being a not-idiot is knowing the limits of your own knowledge. If you don't understand how this stuff is put together, fine, that doesn't make you an idiot. But if you just start raging at the nearest available person, rather than doing your research to fill in the gaps in your knowledge, that's an idiot.
Re:“Subject: Urgent Warning” by kazinator on Wednesday January 20, 2016 @02:28AM (#10936513)
Yeah, tech is complex, like a bicycle!

"Look, I saw your company name under my bicycle seat; how can you say you're not involved in the problem of my pedal having broken off!"

Man made stuff is made from parts, and parts have different suppliers; they are not all original, and a given part is not involved in every conceivable problem that occurs somewhere in the whole. Very complicated, that!

"No wait, I know what you are. You're part of a bicycle vandal ring. You go around breaking pedals and sticking your 'calling card' sticker underneath bicycle seats."

Re:“Subject: Urgent Warning” by raverbashing on Tuesday January 19, 2016 @01:08PM (#10932536)
Some are regular people

Most are people that should not have stopped taken what their Psychiatrist has given them (or should go to one given the chance)

And let's not forget the scammers, of course

Re:“Subject: Urgent Warning” by hotgoldminer on Tuesday January 19, 2016 @11:25AM (#10931711)
In my mind this is the best advice - the only I would follow. Don't respond to the raving and incensed. Instead let them pursue remedy with the relevant authority. Then state your case to said authority. All will circle back to the original party, and they'll buy the explanation: authority granted not only because they're the established authority but also because they were independently engaged by the original party.
Re:“Subject: Urgent Warning” by theandrewbailey on Tuesday January 19, 2016 @11:48AM (#10931896)
> Anyway. When you have a conversation with an idiot, nobody watching can tell which one of you is the idiot.

Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Re:“Subject: Urgent Warning” by kazinator on Wednesday January 20, 2016 @02:50AM (#10936582)
The way to explain that is via an analogy. A web site is sort of like an automated cash register. Suppose you bought something in a retail store and when you paid for it, the cashier used a cash register made by the electronics firm Sharp. If you had trouble with the purchase, would you then approach Sharp? Sir, we are like Sharp in this situation. We made the internet version of the "cash register": the web site software which allows the vendor to operate. That software has our name on it and a link to our web site, the same way that a cash register made by Sharp has the Sharp logo. Even though your cash went into a register with the Sharp logo on it doesn't mean you were doing business with Sharp.
Re:“Subject: Urgent Warning” by anon4 on Wednesday January 20, 2016 @04:03AM (#10936815)
It's like if you slip on a magazine someone left on the ground and ask the photographer of the cover photo for recompense for your bruises.
Re:“Subject: Urgent Warning” by kazinator on Wednesday January 20, 2016 @04:09AM (#10936828)
Whoa, now, I would have to see the photo before I can call this one.

It's not implausible.