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Re:The Refragmentation by TheOtherHobbes on Saturday January 02, 2016 @07:13PM (#10828732)
>He mentioned the example of Apple and IBM,

And on that, as on so much else, he's more than a little wrong.

Apple and Microsoft simply couldn't have happened without the mega-corps - not least HP, but also IBM, and Fairchild and its spin-offs - which only existed because of post-war military and civilian "socialist" state support for technology.

By the mid-70s that support had been influencing economic policy for more than forty years.

Apple was a product of that system, not a cause of it. Companies like Apple do not happen in a pure deregulated neoliberal market paradise because markets don't have the kind of strategic intelligence that can fund projects like Whirlwind, TX-0, and the original Arpanet - all of which are essential steps on the road to making an Apple or a Google.

>Absent a healthy middle class, which was created by the era of conformity and relative income equality, would there have been enough consumers to create a market for a $5k computer? As we see income inequality rise, are we not also going to see the opportunity for wealth creation diminish as capital congregates in the hands of a class that largely conserves it?

And this is why they can't happen. You can't build your economy by impoverishing your customers with hand-wavey idealism about "market rates." If you try that, at best you run out of customers, and at worst you get a violent revolution.

The smart way to understand the economy isn't as a number of acquisitive centres for a vague thing called "money", but as a way of amplifying collective intelligence and distributing the gains as widely as possible. Status games for their own sake - which include most purely speculative and acquisitive activity - are the opposite of collective intelligence because they concentrate acquisition instead of distributing it.

You can get localised negentropic blips in a speculative economy, but the overall trend will still decrease collective opportunity over the medium/long term rather than increasing it.

Re:The Refragmentation by analog31 on Saturday January 02, 2016 @11:30PM (#10829500)
Interesting perspective. Thanks.

Companies like Apple do not happen in a pure deregulated neoliberal market paradise because markets don't have the kind of strategic intelligence that can fund projects like Whirlwind, TX-0, and the original Arpanet - all of which are essential steps on the road to making an Apple or a Google.

Going even further, corporations themselves do not happen in the absence of regulation, and I think that the granddaddy of entitlements -- liability limitation -- is necessary in order to gather enough capital to form great ventures like chip manufacturing.

Re:The Refragmentation by acjohnson55 on Sunday January 03, 2016 @02:35PM (#10831933)
> Apple was a product of that system, not a cause of it. Companies like Apple do not happen in a pure deregulated neoliberal market paradise because markets don't have the kind of strategic intelligence that can fund projects like Whirlwind, TX-0, and the original Arpanet - all of which are essential steps on the road to making an Apple or a Google.

The book Doing Capitalism in the Innovation Economy [1] really hammers in this point. I highly recommend it to people who have an interest in this. I wrote a review that captures a lot of my reflections on the book itself and the subject matter [2].

[1] http://www.amazon.com/Doing-Capitalism-Innovation-Economy-Sp...

[2] http://www.amazon.com/review/R2SCHS5SXNDF30/ref=cm_cr_dp_tit...

Re:The Refragmentation by kobayashi on Sunday January 03, 2016 @04:03AM (#10829993)
>Companies like Apple do not happen in a pure deregulated neoliberal market paradise because markets don't have the kind of strategic intelligence that can fund projects like Whirlwind, TX-0, and the original Arpanet - all of which are essential steps on the road to making an Apple or a Google.

While I can agree that private entities/markets lacked the capability to fund transformative projects during most of the 20th century, I'm hard-pressed to reasonably apply that to the modern context.

It seems that the most forward thinking, transformative ideas are indeed coming from the private sector markets (e.g. SpaceX), and with the enhanced abilities that our technological age affords to solo individuals, it seems that even small teams may be able to create the next transformative, paradigm-shifting project.

Re:The Refragmentation by woah on Sunday January 03, 2016 @04:36AM (#10830057)
Leaving the buzzwordy hand waving in the last paragraph aside, spacex gets the majority of its revenue from the government.
Re:The Refragmentation by JBiserkov on Sunday January 03, 2016 @08:17AM (#10830478)
... for services rendered, at a price no one else is able to compete. Or so I've heard. Correct me if I'm wrong(the PR machines are not to be underestimated). Or don't, your choice.
Re:The Refragmentation by kobayashi on Sunday January 03, 2016 @02:49PM (#10832017)
I wouldn't call it buzzwordy hand waving, mostly because it actually means something intelligible. But regardless, so what if SpaceX gets the majority of its money from the government? It's operating as a private entity and it's revolutionizing space travel, and the funding coming from the US government is not for research and development, but for actual services rendered. Similarly, do you believe that the next giant leap forward in general AI is going to come from government? It may, but it also might come from the private sector. I'd say that the same goes for the future's version of Arpanet (something the public doesn't see coming but eventually changes everything).

Because technology enables small teams to make big changes that were once only within reach for large entities like the government, the idea that markets don't have the strategic intelligence to do big, long-term thinking, just seems bunk to me. Also, look at the AI lab announced by Altman and Musk, or look at YC's new long-term research lab project. These could conceivably produce the next Arpanet, don't you think?

Re:The Refragmentation by cma on Monday January 04, 2016 @03:55AM (#10834605)
> As of May 2012, SpaceX had operated on total funding of approximately $1 billion in its first ten years of operation. Of this, private equity provided about $200M, with Musk investing approximately $100M and other investors having put in about $100M (Founders Fund, Draper Fisher Jurvetson, ...).[47] The remainder has come from progress payments on long-term launch contracts and development contracts. As of April 2012, NASA had put in about $400–500M of this amount, with most of that as progress payments on launch contracts.

40-50% of funding from NASA contracts. Yes, this isn't necessarily the same as a direct subsidy, but, in fitting with the article:

"Many of the mid-century oligopolies had been anointed by the federal government with policies (and in wartime, large orders) that kept out competitors."

Re:The Refragmentation by TimJYoung on Monday January 04, 2016 @11:02AM (#10836275)
Great comment, especially the first paragraph. All one needs to do is watch the PBS documentary "Silicon Valley" to see how true this was. The space race was the driving force behind Fairchild and its many "children" that went on to become what is now Silicon Valley.