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Re:The rise and decline of Wikipedia [pdf] by sandworm101 on Thursday December 31, 2015 @02:59PM (#10819343)
There is a finite pattern whenever one relies on volunteers. Most will come and go, but a few hang around and rise to the top. Lacking renumeration, they tend towards self-gratification. Some handle extra responsibility well, but others start building their own little castles from which to berate all below. This process is inevitable once you have multiple ranks of volunteers.

I've seen this with charities, open source projects, and it was a constant problem when I worked in film/tv (interns). Things always go south when you have volunteers bossing around other volunteers. Newcomers show up eager but depart quickly, normally after some dressing down by a more senior volunteer. Without pay in dispute, they rarely make complaint. They just stop showing up. And who can blame them?

The answer is to keep all volunteers equal. That's probably impossible for a project like wikipedia, but they could certainly do more to ensure new volunteers are not so bullied by the old guard.

Re:The rise and decline of Wikipedia [pdf] by j_lev on Thursday December 31, 2015 @04:57PM (#10819924)
Wow. I feel like an abuse victim that has just had an intervention. Now that you mention it, I've seen this phenomenon at almost every open source project I've peeked into over the years. I need to sit down for a bit.
Re:The rise and decline of Wikipedia [pdf] by brillenfux on Thursday December 31, 2015 @03:34PM (#10819543)
This should get more attention. I'm almost certain you have the source of the problem right. I just wouldn't be so sure and quick about your solution.

It would be really nice to have more extensive work on how to mitigate these kinds of dynamics as I'm certain we will see more and more of these projects and I'd like them to be healthy for a change.

Humanity: Evolve! ;-)

Re:The rise and decline of Wikipedia [pdf] by DanBC on Thursday December 31, 2015 @03:50PM (#10819620)
That's different enough from VestedContributor that you should give it a name and write it up.

http://meatballwiki.org/wiki/VestedContributor

VestedContributors think the rules can be bent for them because they've been around so long and done so much good work.

Re:The rise and decline of Wikipedia [pdf] by sandworm101 on Thursday December 31, 2015 @04:35PM (#10819823)
Write up what? Sandworm's syndrome of the progressive dysfunction inherent to hierarchical volunteer communities? Talk to anyone who has worked as a volunteer coordinator. They see this all the time.

As for keeping volunteers equal to avoid the problem, that need not mean keeping everyone identical. Leadership roles can rotate, with finite term limits. That way every leader today knows they will be the underling tomorrow. (This also keeps everyone interested and motivated as nobody is every stuck on one task/job).

Re:The rise and decline of Wikipedia [pdf] by tamana on Friday January 01, 2016 @02:15PM (#10822928)
Hey, the founding mission of wikipedia is to publish stuff that every expert knows, to inform novices.
Re:The rise and decline of Wikipedia [pdf] by mahranch on Thursday December 31, 2015 @08:04PM (#10820660)
> "VestedContributors think the rules can be bent for them because they've been around so long and done so much good work."

But is that inherently a bad thing? The way you state it, I'm getting that you're implying that it's bad 100% of the time. If you're looking at it in terms of black and white, I guess just hearing "rules can be bent" is bad, but I don't think it's that simple.

I think there are times where the rules can be bent which creates an outcome that is beneficial to all. Times where the rules don't account for certain variables/situations and those incidents need to be handled differently (or with care). I think it's a complex problem and it may need a complex solution.

The best, and I mean absolute best volunteer teams I've been a part of have always had a leader at the top with absolute authority. However, he or she never abused their power, and rarely flexed their absolute authority, preferring to take up the mantle of "benevolent dictator". In those cases, some amazing things happened. We got our work done ahead of time, group moral was sky-high, and the projects were a massive success. Things "just worked".

Re:The rise and decline of Wikipedia [pdf] by mjklin on Thursday December 31, 2015 @08:10PM (#10820683)
I agree with your analogy to other volunteer projects, but Wikipedia is certainly a special case. For a given article that is connected to an academic discipline, there is a good chance that it has at least one professional "babysitter" who is notified when changes are made. I can imagine that scholars have a portfolio on Wiki in the same way programmers do on GitHub.

Point being that it's much easier for them to maintain high quality with low effort.

Re:The rise and decline of Wikipedia [pdf] by tamana on Friday January 01, 2016 @02:13PM (#10822918)
Is this specific to volunteerism? The problem you describe sounds like the famous "middle management" nonsense of the corporate world. People who are neither the owner/dictator nor independents or line workers, justify their existence by pushing people around to self-gratify/justify
Re:The rise and decline of Wikipedia [pdf] by mitchtbaum on Thursday December 31, 2015 @08:32PM (#10820731)
> Things always go south when you have volunteers bossing around other volunteers.

You showed this well. Thank you for finding this pattern and telling about it clearly.

> The answer is to keep all volunteers equal.

(Un)Fortunately this would break. Logically, how can you have one group of equals enforce their rules with unequal power? Naturally, influence (roles(?)) emerge(s). For social animals to want to stick together over the long haul, (1) an elder's view needs to carry a good bit of weight. This makes it possible to retain experience and membership, because these elders are our gateway to the past and they get tired and battle worn. The young learn from those with the experience and use it to build their future. (2) Members need to both use influence and limit it. Mocking leaders and their work, behind their backs and in-front of them, joking with them over the flaws in their work help them to keep their heads from filling with hot air. When someone takes on more responsibility, people will naturally and comfortably give them uneven support if they mutually respect and believe in eachother. This means some have more influence than others. When this flowing power gets a kink in it and builds up in any one place, then it will flood the basin. As long as work gets done and individuals cultivate good relationships, then a community will stick together and most everyone will feel like the community has good balance.

My experience with this: studied this a bit within anthropology and sociology, lived with these dynamics in and among Drupal (a self-described do-ocracy, perhaps a holocracy) community members for over ~10 years, and have a deep interest in natural processes that contribute to social order.

A related snippet from you guessed it with several links to springboard into related research:

Anthropologists maintain that hunter/gatherers don't have permanent leaders; instead, the person taking the initiative at any one time depends on the task being performed.[13][14][15] In addition to social and economic equality in hunter-gatherer societies, there is often, though not always, sexual parity as well.[13] Hunter-gatherers are often grouped together based on kinship and band (or tribe) membership.[16] Postmarital residence among hunter-gatherers tends to be matrilocal, at least initially.[17]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter-gatherer#Social_and_eco...

Re:The rise and decline of Wikipedia [pdf] by sandworm101 on Thursday December 31, 2015 @11:55PM (#10821134)
The other advantage of true hunter/gatherer activities is that their physical nature allows people to rotate in and out of roles naturally.

If you are walking in the woods, everyone has down/slow days. Hiking/climbing groups know this and so rarely have dedicated leaders. Look at the military groups that occasionally climb mountains (ie wounded warriors on everest). On day one they throw the entire "rank" thing out the window. They know it doesn't work for mountaineering. Instead decisions are generally made by the person least tired/hungry/dehydrated at the time. That's how a hunting party would work: If Bob's got a sore foot today, he isn't going to be the one flushing the deer and instead might be today's planner/leader.

Re:The rise and decline of Wikipedia [pdf] by noobermin on Thursday December 31, 2015 @08:20PM (#10820707)
Isn't this really true of all organizations, not just ones staffed with volunteers? One organization I'd think this applies well to is academia.