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Re:Seattle Considers Measure to Let Uber and Lyft Drivers Un... by gburt on Monday December 14, 2015 @04:00PM (#10733823)
Can you share some of the arguments in favor of involuntary unions? (I'm even willing to invest some time digging if anyone has some pointers to potential sources of literature, I am genuinely interested.)

My personal experience has been that when I've been the so-called "beneficiary" of one, it has not actually benefited me and has often made for awkward scenarios where there is me and the counterparty ("employer") and this weird semi-interested third-party regulating how we can interact, regardless of what is actually in my self-interest.

Just to be clear, I am all for collective bargaining in the sense of a bunch of (small) actors choosing to work together against an adversary. I would do this myself if I deemed it beneficial. I don't understand why we would mandate that individuals had to be bound by the agreement whether they want to participate or not. I recognize that this is a common structure though.

Re:Seattle Considers Measure to Let Uber and Lyft Drivers Un... by latj on Monday December 14, 2015 @04:27PM (#10734020)
What you are describing is what existed before what we have now. A group of people working for an employer would try to negotiate for safer working conditions, better benefits, etc. The employer would take the list of demands, fire the person who handed him the list and say, "I'm not giving you any of this shit and anyone who talks about it again gets fired too."

So people started organizing by trade. It made sense because workers of a common trade share experiences and grievances. If one particular employer treated its workers bad, that trade guild had more leverage by threatening work stoppage against other employers who could put pressure on the first employer.

Over time employers started to converge and grow in power. Now you have a company who employs thousands of people in multiple locations. To keep the balance in power, the unions converged and grew in power. You cant threaten to replace a union worker if everyone who does that job is in the union(1).

Now the unions are big enough to disrupt economies, sway elections, etc. They are large professional entities of lawyers, financial managers. They want everyone in the union for maximal leverage (ie fewer scabs, more dues) so they lobbied to affect the policies we have today.

The small voluntary no-admin-overhead organization you are describing is ideal, but its really unlikely to work. It would depend on the employer allowing it to happen.

I could say more here about the growing wealth gap, criminalization of poverty, and the quiet ongoing class war, and end with a Malcom X quote, "Anytime you depend on your enemy for a job you're in bad shape." But I dont feel like saying all that. ;)

1. robots

Re:Seattle Considers Measure to Let Uber and Lyft Drivers Un... by JoshTriplett on Monday December 14, 2015 @04:42PM (#10734149)
> You cant threaten to replace a union worker if everyone who does that job is in the union

If an employer did something like that, the FTC would go after them for abusing a monopoly to dictate pricing, for anti-competitive practices (e.g. contracts that prevent doing business with competitors), etc. But somehow it's OK for unions to do that?

Re:Seattle Considers Measure to Let Uber and Lyft Drivers Un... by __jal on Monday December 14, 2015 @05:22PM (#10734435)
Maybe.

A very short answer is that there are many differences between capital and labor. (It is even right there on the tin - we don't call our system "laborism", and a few actual words related to that meaning are popularly demonized in the U.S.)

Sure, sure, corporations are people ("my friend"), but most humans still see a difference between John calling in sick because he didn't like seeing his pal Bob fired and things like redlining, oligopoly partitioning, etc.

It has to do with power dynamics, and this is well recognized in law. (One example is that contracts between parties of disparate power are generally interpreted in the light most beneficial to the least powerful. For more extreme cases, look up the legal sense of the word "adhesion".)

And recall that capital always has options.

- Happy employees tend not to unionize. Many places normally considered to be natural homes for unions don't have them because management doesn't give them a reason to need one.

- If capital or management decides those proles are too uppity, it can close shop. (Labor also has this option, but that's called 'suicide' and considered in a rather different light.) Walmart did this a while back when (IIRC) their butchers successfully beat them and unionized; Walmart got out of the meat cutting business.

- Outsource. Amazon has a pile of circuit-breaker corporations that supply them backs and hands. Those corporations (really, binders on a Delaware shelf and bank accounts) take the heat from lawsuits when the backs break and the hands are smashed by robots. This use of non-human shields works surprisingly well in some circumstances, but the tight coupling with the mothership needed by app-driven job direction would make it look pretty strange if they set up shell companies to supply "workers", so that one may not work for Uber.

(update: fixed my goofy formatting.)

Re:Seattle Considers Measure to Let Uber and Lyft Drivers Un... by drumdance on Monday December 14, 2015 @05:06PM (#10734318)
Not "somehow." It's written into federal law.
Re:Seattle Considers Measure to Let Uber and Lyft Drivers Un... by rverghes on Monday December 14, 2015 @04:17PM (#10733939)
It's generally to prevent free-riding. Let's say the union negotiates benefit X, and the company then provides benefit X to all employees including non-union employees. An example could be safety features that the union is pushing for. The non-union employees have benefited from the actions of the union without having to pay the cost.

To balance this, involuntary unionization usually requires a majority vote from the employees to unionize.

Re:Seattle Considers Measure to Let Uber and Lyft Drivers Un... by blisterpeanuts on Monday December 14, 2015 @04:49PM (#10734186)
Is that true in right-to-work states as well? I thought right-to-work was specifically to prevent involuntary unionization.
Re:Seattle Considers Measure to Let Uber and Lyft Drivers Un... by rverghes on Monday December 14, 2015 @07:09PM (#10734983)
Yes, but right-to-work is generally a reaction to involuntary unionization, as in it came after the involuntary unionization phase.
Re:Seattle Considers Measure to Let Uber and Lyft Drivers Un... by nerfhammer on Monday December 14, 2015 @04:14PM (#10733917)
I think the argument is that if people aren't required to be in the union then people can free ride on the union's efforts without paying dues.
Re:Seattle Considers Measure to Let Uber and Lyft Drivers Un... by Shivetya on Monday December 14, 2015 @04:30PM (#10734050)
they should still have that choice as they cannot choose what happens with their union dues. far too many unions spend inordinate amounts of money on political activities instead of their own membership. then top it off with all the bureaucratic bloat and high paid leadership I think people must be given the right to abstain.

If you want to dodge the free ride then have the dues go to a non political spending charity of your choice provided it is local, may I suggest children's healthcare hospitals

Re:Seattle Considers Measure to Let Uber and Lyft Drivers Un... by santaclaus on Monday December 14, 2015 @05:01PM (#10734273)
Technically one is allowed to exercise the so-called 'Beck' decision [1] and only pay the union what is required for contact negotiation and related fees. In practice I wonder how difficult it is to actually leverage Beck.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communications_Workers_of_Amer...

Re:Seattle Considers Measure to Let Uber and Lyft Drivers Un... by s73v3r on Monday December 14, 2015 @04:51PM (#10734198)
"they should still have that choice as they cannot choose what happens with their union dues"

This isn't true.

"far too many unions spend inordinate amounts of money on political activities instead of their own membership"

If you believe that, then start getting involved in your union's leadership and change it.

" then top it off with all the bureaucratic bloat and high paid leadership"

As opposed to the leanness and crappily paid leadership of the company?

Re:Seattle Considers Measure to Let Uber and Lyft Drivers Un... by MCRed on Monday December 14, 2015 @05:28PM (#10734479)
In fact, in the two instances where I've worked at "closed shop" places early in my career, the combination of HAVING to join the union to keep my job, and Union dues, meant that I would have been making LESS than minimum wage as a result! (Worse in one case the dues were annual but I had to pay half up front-- which I wouldn't get back if I lost the job.)
Re:Seattle Considers Measure to Let Uber and Lyft Drivers Un... by gertef on Monday December 14, 2015 @04:20PM (#10733959)
A union is essentially a local government, aligned along employment instead of geography. It is logically very similar to how your local municipality (or HOA) can levy taxes and enforce laws against you.
Re:Seattle Considers Measure to Let Uber and Lyft Drivers Un... by markdown on Monday December 14, 2015 @04:23PM (#10733985)
If joining the union is a choice, employers will simply prevent employees from doing so, either with threats or disincentives.

"Want to receive a bonus at the end of the year, don't join the union".

Re:Seattle Considers Measure to Let Uber and Lyft Drivers Un... by JoshTriplett on Monday December 14, 2015 @04:40PM (#10734133)
And if the union has enough power and its members care enough, they can say "stop doing that or we'll all quit, good luck replacing us". If the employer has the power to say "go ahead and quit then", then the union doesn't actually have the power to effect change, so why should anyone bother being a member?
Re:Seattle Considers Measure to Let Uber and Lyft Drivers Un... by markdown on Monday December 14, 2015 @07:09PM (#10734985)
> And if the union has enough power and its members care enough, they can say "stop doing that or we'll all quit, good luck replacing us"

How would the union know what the boss tells his new hires? Unions don't get to monitor the hiring process of every communication between a worker and his employee.

Re:Seattle Considers Measure to Let Uber and Lyft Drivers Un... by JoshTriplett on Monday December 14, 2015 @08:16PM (#10735322)
First, because the union could negotiate that as part of their initial agreement with the company: "don't use any means to entice or threaten people into not joining the union". If it's that common a tactic, that would presumably be a standard part of a union's playbook.

As for how they'd know it was going on: it only takes one person to "leak" that information to the union. And if the union and company are large enough that new people get hired regularly, they might occasionally find someone who fits the profile and send them through the hiring process specifically to find out how a new employee gets treated.

Re:Seattle Considers Measure to Let Uber and Lyft Drivers Un... by s73v3r on Monday December 14, 2015 @04:53PM (#10734219)
No. Just no.

Any argument you make will always come back to, "The company will threaten and fire people who don't go along with what they want."

Re:Seattle Considers Measure to Let Uber and Lyft Drivers Un... by JoshTriplett on Monday December 14, 2015 @05:16PM (#10734390)
Are you attempting to make a counterargument, or are you hoping people will read your comment and go "yeah, corporations bad, down with corporations!"? Yes, voluntary unions have to fight against the ability of a company to simply fire people; they depend on the willingness of the entire group to stand together and take the risk together, win or lose.

The whole point of a union is that employees have more power collectively than individually. A company can just tell an individual "no". If all or almost all employees get together and say "the situation is so bad that we're willing to quit (and make a lot of noise and bad PR for you) rather than let this go on", then that's harder to ignore. If the company is willing to fire everyone and deal with the bad PR, and that's cheaper than the union's demands, then the union doesn't actually have the power to effect change even as a collective.

I don't see any reason that either the company or the union should be artificially given more power in that scenario.

Re:Seattle Considers Measure to Let Uber and Lyft Drivers Un... by s73v3r on Monday December 14, 2015 @08:24PM (#10735347)
Except in the current scenario, the company already has disproportionately more power. A company can get by shorthanded for a while. A person not having a job, however, is far, far more devastating, especially if that person has a family to support.
Re:Seattle Considers Measure to Let Uber and Lyft Drivers Un... by LordHumungous on Monday December 14, 2015 @04:37PM (#10734104)
>Can you share some of the arguments in favor of involuntary unions?

They drastically increase employee leverage and lead to much higher wages and benefits for labor.