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Re:How Jefferson and other Founding Fathers defended Muslim ... by intrasight on Saturday December 12, 2015 @01:23PM (#10723580)
This article highlights the enlightened, thoughtful, respectful discourse which at the basis of the creation of the great nation that is the United States. Things were by no means perfect then. But certainly we can learn from the words and actions of many outstanding characters of the time.
Re:How Jefferson and other Founding Fathers defended Muslim ... by rm_-rf_slash on Saturday December 12, 2015 @01:38PM (#10723639)
Things are never perfect. The best we can hope for is that people work hard and are good to each other. The founding fathers had their fair share of flaws just like any leader today, and yet they managed to turn a rebellion into something great.

The real tragedy today is that there are many Americans who want a monopoly on American identity, instead of embracing the source of America's strength: our ability to assimilate people and ideas into something greater than the sum of its parts (and genocical imperialism and slave labor helped too)

Re:How Jefferson and other Founding Fathers defended Muslim ... by vezzy-fnord on Saturday December 12, 2015 @01:41PM (#10723649)
The real tragedy today is that there are many Americans who want a monopoly on American identity

American identity is much more heterogeneous today than ever before, in no small part thanks to ecumenism.

Re:How Jefferson and other Founding Fathers defended Muslim ... by rm_-rf_slash on Saturday December 12, 2015 @01:47PM (#10723670)
Broadly, yes. But let's not mince words: the white and largely male-dominated subset of Americans see themselves as the vanguards of the true - and dying - standard of what it means to be American. Therefore, they would rather fight scorched-earth against alternative lifestyles and skin colors over the meaning of what makes up an American rather than work together to ensure national prosperity in a turbulent world order.
Re:How Jefferson and other Founding Fathers defended Muslim ... by the-dude on Saturday December 12, 2015 @02:41PM (#10723871)
As long as they are white and christian, yes. This week I learned on this very forum the US opened up to non-EU immigrants only after 1965?

That is what they are referring to, right?

Re:How Jefferson and other Founding Fathers defended Muslim ... by simoncion on Saturday December 12, 2015 @03:50PM (#10724089)
> This week I learned on this very forum the US opened up to non-EU immigrants only after 1965?

What?

The stereotype of Asian laborers working (and dying) to build the great Western railroads is grounded in a fair bit of truth. Moreover, San Francisco's Chinatown acquired the Asian residents that lead to its name long before 1965.

Re:How Jefferson and other Founding Fathers defended Muslim ... by the-dude on Saturday December 12, 2015 @05:17PM (#10724386)
I stand corrected: they were just second class citizens.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_laws_concerning_imm...

Re:How Jefferson and other Founding Fathers defended Muslim ... by simoncion on Saturday December 12, 2015 @06:00PM (#10724537)
It seems likely that there will always be at least one group of second-class citizens. The overall quality of life for humans appears to be increasing as the decades and centuries go by, but -frankly- I don't see our tendency to create outgroups going away for a very, very, very long time.

Not to be mean, but I'm having some difficulty understanding how your contributions to this subthread are related to the topic broached by rm_-rf_slash.

Re:How Jefferson and other Founding Fathers defended Muslim ... by the-dude on Saturday December 12, 2015 @07:27PM (#10724842)
> instead of embracing the source of America's strength

I am trying to put this narrative into perspective.

Re:How Jefferson and other Founding Fathers defended Muslim ... by simoncion on Sunday December 13, 2015 @10:03AM (#10726485)
Ah.

I expect that -if you make a close study of history-, you'll find that "[America's greatest strength is its ability to assimilate people and ideas into something greater than the sum of its parts as] long as [those people] are white and [those people and ideas are] christian..." is a statement that isn't supported by the facts.

Xenophobia and racism was and is real, yes. But, -culturally and ideologically- the US has been and remains substantially less homogenous and substantially more willing to accept immigrants into its borders than many other countries.

[dead]
Re:How Jefferson and other Founding Fathers defended Muslim ... by maratd on Saturday December 12, 2015 @01:34PM (#10723621)
They were absolutely outstanding men relative to their peers. Check your PC bullshit.
Re:How Jefferson and other Founding Fathers defended Muslim ... by zappo2938 on Saturday December 12, 2015 @01:51PM (#10723688)
It was complicated. George Washington in discussions with Benjamin Franklin said to Franklin that he couldn't free the slaves because the unity of the United States was far more important. The British didn't give up trying to control the United States until Andrew Jackson destroyed them in a battle at New Orleans and the British came very close to succeeding.

"I rejoice in a belief that intellectual light will spring up in the dark corners of the earth; that freedom of enquiry will produce liberality of conduct; that mankind will reverse the absurd position that the many were, made for the few; and that they will not continue slaves in one part of the globe, when they can become freemen in another." -- Fro the first draft of George Washington's inaugural address.

George Washington and Thomas Jefferson had to deal with more pressing issues at the time and put off freeing slaves for a later generation.

Re:How Jefferson and other Founding Fathers defended Muslim ... by sremani on Saturday December 12, 2015 @02:26PM (#10723816)
Washington freed his slaves upon his death. Jefferson, who had children with slave girl(s), did not grant any freedom after his death. Him being near broke could be a reason, but let us not forget that the Children of an American president and most possibly Grand Children lived in slavery till civil war.
Re:How Jefferson and other Founding Fathers defended Muslim ... by transfire on Saturday December 12, 2015 @02:36PM (#10723848)
Jefferson did free all his slaves that were his children -- Sally Hemings children (I have never heard of any evidence that he slept with any other). Most likely he did not free the rest of his slaves because he was in a great deal of debt when he died and didn't want that debt to burden his children.
Re:How Jefferson and other Founding Fathers defended Muslim ... by Amezarak on Saturday December 12, 2015 @02:59PM (#10723917)
> They were absolutely outstanding men relative to their peers. Check your PC bullshit.

Honestly, setting aside anachronistic moral issues, I don't think they are any different than a random selection of modern US politicians.

Read through their letters and through contemporary news articles and you get the impression that in some ways they were even more fractious and petty. The vapid insults and conspiracy theories they published aimed at each other often make even Trump look good. (Probably the biggest misconception I had was that the 'Founding Fathers' got along pleasantly even if they had the occasional intellectual disagreement. Nope, not at all. And their political positions existed on a much, much broader scale than I had ever imagined.) They don't come across as remotely exemplary characters even compared to their peers.

Then you have things like the Alien and Sedition Acts, where even white men were arrested and prosecuted for criticizing the President, and you realize we've got it pretty good these days. Frankly it seems almost incredible that the early republic survived.

I think the real lesson to learn from the early days of America is that the right circumstances and processes can make a workable union out of even a hugely disparate population - but that there are still limits. Early America made it only because the shared sense of values and community was just enough.

Re:How Jefferson and other Founding Fathers defended Muslim ... by vdaniuk on Saturday December 12, 2015 @01:49PM (#10723678)
>Check your PC bullshit

Come on, it's an anonymous troll account with an obvious goal of ridiculing pro-PC argument. Check your #{x}!

Re:How Jefferson and other Founding Fathers defended Muslim ... by reitanqild on Saturday December 12, 2015 @03:37PM (#10724036)
The annoying thing is he was close enough to fool me.
Re:How Jefferson and other Founding Fathers defended Muslim ... by islandtech on Saturday December 12, 2015 @01:38PM (#10723637)
Different times. You cannot hold past people to whatever the rights du jour are now. Slavery was legal then, right or wrong.

I'm sure in 100+ years, people will look back on us and laugh at how "unenlightened" we are.

Re:How Jefferson and other Founding Fathers defended Muslim ... by maxxxxx on Saturday December 12, 2015 @01:54PM (#10723696)
Jefferson and Washington knew exactly that slavery was immoral.
Re:How Jefferson and other Founding Fathers defended Muslim ... by Diamons on Saturday December 12, 2015 @02:50PM (#10723896)
Just like we know that abortion and death penalty are immoral. Future generations will look back at us and look at us as barbarians.
Re:How Jefferson and other Founding Fathers defended Muslim ... by simoncion on Saturday December 12, 2015 @03:59PM (#10724129)
> Just like we know that abortion and death penalty immoral.

Heh.

It's fairly clear that the justice system arrives at the wrong conclusion too often for it to be trusted to determine that a person is both irredeemable and needs to be killed.

Even a cursory search of relevant medical literature reveals that there are situations in which abortion of a pregnancy is the safest and most correct course of action. This topic is substantially less clear-cut.

Re:How Jefferson and other Founding Fathers defended Muslim ... by Diamons on Saturday December 12, 2015 @05:54PM (#10724521)
I am not 100% against abortion, especially when it comes to the health of the mother. I still think it's barbaric but it's the best option we have with the technology and treatments available. However I am against unregulated abortions. If an abortion is to be done, it must be under the guidance and consultation of a medical doctor.
Re:How Jefferson and other Founding Fathers defended Muslim ... by simoncion on Saturday December 12, 2015 @06:04PM (#10724550)
It's a pity that you're now outside of the edit window for your original comment. You could have taken a second stab at saying what you meant to say, rather than something pithy. :)

> However I am against unregulated abortions.

The sentiment "Abortions are immoral" is a significant driver of efforts to force all abortions to be illegal and -thus- unregulated. You might think about expressing your stance in a more nuanced fashion in the future.

Re:How Jefferson and other Founding Fathers defended Muslim ... by paulddraper on Saturday December 12, 2015 @10:02PM (#10725234)
Strawman.

You are referring to a tiny fraction of abortions.

Only a few abortion critics oppose abortions to save the mother's life.

Re:How Jefferson and other Founding Fathers defended Muslim ... by simoncion on Sunday December 13, 2015 @08:57AM (#10726348)
> Strawman.

Nope. See my conversation with Diamons to be enlightened.

Re:How Jefferson and other Founding Fathers defended Muslim ... by Razengan on Saturday December 12, 2015 @03:47PM (#10724075)
Don't forget involuntary genital mutilation AKA circumcision.