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Re:Mozilla Will Stop Developing and Selling Firefox OS Smart... by lewisl9029 on Tuesday December 08, 2015 @03:29PM (#10699235)
Completely agree that they should turn their focus towards solving privacy and identity management.

I'm hoping that this might mean they can direct some resources towards Persona development again. Or at least experiment with something new in this area.

Re:Mozilla Will Stop Developing and Selling Firefox OS Smart... by seanp2k2 on Tuesday December 08, 2015 @03:34PM (#10699272)
+1 for Persona. Previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10436123

Re: privacy / security, I really wish they hadn't dropped Thunderbird.

Re:Mozilla Will Stop Developing and Selling Firefox OS Smart... by wamatt on Tuesday December 08, 2015 @04:44PM (#10699798)
It's a shame really, but as an outsider, it wasn't clear that Persona was even given a chance to fail.
Re:Mozilla Will Stop Developing and Selling Firefox OS Smart... by StavrosK on Tuesday December 08, 2015 @04:57PM (#10699892)
That's my impression as well. A friend and I created a pastebin as a fun weekend project this weekend (https://www.pastery.net/) and we used Persona for auth, since it's so damn convenient. The only problem is that it loads a bunch of files on every request, and my questions about lazy-loading went unanswered.

I really wish Mozilla would change their mind and start developing this again. It feels like they expected all major websites to support it on the first year, and, when that didn't happen, they decided to drop it.

Re:Mozilla Will Stop Developing and Selling Firefox OS Smart... by DHowett on Tuesday December 08, 2015 @09:52PM (#10701619)
Incidentally, I launched a pastebin (https://ghostbin.com/) some time ago, used Persona for authentication, and absolutely loved it.

Pastery looks awesome. It appears that you're using Pygments server-side?

Re:Mozilla Will Stop Developing and Selling Firefox OS Smart... by rsync on Wednesday December 09, 2015 @12:11AM (#10702023)
Serious question for you and your parent:

Why would a pastebin site need auth/login/userids ?

All I can think of is editing pastes, but isn't it easier to just create a new (anonymous) paste instead of editing ?

Re:Mozilla Will Stop Developing and Selling Firefox OS Smart... by DHowett on Wednesday December 09, 2015 @01:44AM (#10702285)
They're primarily for content ownership management.

I'd prefer not to have accounts, and Ghostbin tries to avoid keeping identifiable information around, but they do come in fairly handy for maintaining control of the things you've pasted and the right to revoke them.

Session cookies aren't quite up to the task, since they can't stick around forever and are difficult to bring with you between workspaces.

(edit to elaborate on "avoid keeping identifiable information": account names are hashed, the account never stores user identification, and a paste doesn't track which account created it. For most intents and many purposes, the creator of a paste is anonymous. We could get into drawing correlations between all the pastes owned by an account, but I'm not particularly interested in sitting around and doing that.)

Re:Mozilla Will Stop Developing and Selling Firefox OS Smart... by lotyrin on Wednesday December 09, 2015 @01:28AM (#10702242)
Deletion. Modification of pastes and maintaining the same id (URL).

Though, these can be solved with tokens per post, it's tough to remember/maintain multiple tokens, doesn't work out in practice.

Re:Mozilla Will Stop Developing and Selling Firefox OS Smart... by r-w on Sunday December 13, 2015 @12:55PM (#10727102)
Preventing inundation with pastes. This is less of a problem for a small project like this compared to one of the major sites, whose server architecture is probably more robust.
Re:Mozilla Will Stop Developing and Selling Firefox OS Smart... by StavrosK on Thursday December 10, 2015 @08:03PM (#10714842)
That looks fantastic! I love what you've done with the UI. We do use Pygments, yep, same as you, looks like :)

I don't think I'd have started Pastery if I'd seen Ghostbin, as I was looking for a pastebin that wasn't ugly, and I hadn't found any that qualified.

Have you had any abuse problems at all?

Re:Mozilla Will Stop Developing and Selling Firefox OS Smart... by click170 on Tuesday December 08, 2015 @07:29PM (#10700950)
With Thunderbird at least, the repo is open and available.

Does the same stand for Persona?

Perhaps instead of asking Firefox to do the legwork we should be contributing some of our own time to the projects we want to see succeed.

Re:Mozilla Will Stop Developing and Selling Firefox OS Smart... by citruspi on Tuesday December 08, 2015 @08:23PM (#10701237)
Re:Mozilla Will Stop Developing and Selling Firefox OS Smart... by StavrosK on Tuesday December 08, 2015 @07:44PM (#10701040)
How is that relevant? Are you saying that Persona failed because they didn't get enough pull requests from other users?
Re:Mozilla Will Stop Developing and Selling Firefox OS Smart... by citruspi on Tuesday December 08, 2015 @08:24PM (#10701240)
I think they're saying that even if Mozilla may not decide to actively develop Persona anymore, Persona users and fans would be able to contribute to and further develop the project if the repo is "open and available."
Re:Mozilla Will Stop Developing and Selling Firefox OS Smart... by StavrosK on Tuesday December 08, 2015 @08:27PM (#10701256)
That's not happening, unfortunately. Sometimes you need someone with weight to throw around, or with technical knowledge, or both.
Re:Mozilla Will Stop Developing and Selling Firefox OS Smart... by click170 on Wednesday December 09, 2015 @12:12AM (#10702026)
I agree sometimes it takes someone with weight to throw around, but are you saying that person needs to be a Mozilla employee? Because I wouldn't agree with that.
Re:Mozilla Will Stop Developing and Selling Firefox OS Smart... by StavrosK on Wednesday December 09, 2015 @06:46AM (#10703110)
No, it needs to be Mozilla itself.
Re:Mozilla Will Stop Developing and Selling Firefox OS Smart... by nickbauman on Tuesday December 08, 2015 @05:34PM (#10700211)
Absolutely right. Dan Callahan's statement on why:

"with Mozilla Labs somewhat sudden dissolution, we were unexpectedly asked to demonstrate traction and commercial adoption that simply wasn't there."

Commercial adoption? What does that even mean in the context of MoCo? What does MoCo sell? And 24 months? Makes no sense, even for MoCo. Google is consistently a small player in the Cloud Computing Platform space. Their response: "we're not going away." MoCo has scores of millions in the bank. I'm still baffled.

Re:Mozilla Will Stop Developing and Selling Firefox OS Smart... by derefr on Tuesday December 08, 2015 @05:48PM (#10700319)
I think that for Persona in particular, "commercial adoption" would probably have meant "random startups deploying Persona as their customers' identity provider." The idea being that a government/nonprofit/enterprise can be convinced to adopt any old ridiculous thing if you say the right things about it, but "the market" (i.e. a critical mass of SMBs) will only adopt your product if it's giving them a higher ROI than the alternative.
Re:Mozilla Will Stop Developing and Selling Firefox OS Smart... by nickbauman on Tuesday December 08, 2015 @05:55PM (#10700385)
Yeah I don't buy that either. Was there an ROI case made about the iPhone? I don't think so. There's no similar ROI case anyone could make for Firefox, either.
Re:Mozilla Will Stop Developing and Selling Firefox OS Smart... by derefr on Tuesday December 08, 2015 @06:30PM (#10700631)
The original iPhone wasn't a platform (didn't have "apps"), remember; it had value without third party support. Persona, meanwhile, has no value apart from its adoption.

Obviously, it doesn't need adoption to "survive", but it does need adoption to succeed in its goals: rescuing users from stupid hack-job login systems.

I would compare it more to Chrome: Google made Chrome with the goal of getting the web to work better for some people, so they could more easily consume Google's various services. You could say that Chrome's bottom line was "increased Google service adoption": if Chrome renders faster and provides more HTML5 features, then Google gets more and happier customers for their products.

Mozilla doesn't have "services" that Persona is a loss-leader for, but there's still that same ROI calculation of whether Persona is achieving its goals, and measuring adoption rate is a good proxy for that.

The important thing, that Mozilla failed to do, was to actually understand what an adoption curve for something like Persona should look like, and what things affect it. They needed to heavily advertise it (to developers, not to users!) over about two years, and then start looking at the adoption curve.

Re:Mozilla Will Stop Developing and Selling Firefox OS Smart... by nextos on Tuesday December 08, 2015 @04:08PM (#10699540)
I really agree on this. They should focus on a browser that respects privacy and email that respects privacy (perhaps by resuming Thunderbird development).

On top of that, I'd argue IM + video/audio chat that respects privacy is something that desperately needs better solutions.

I'd push software forward, and then innovate on protocols. Peer to peer might be the only way to achieve true privacy.

Re:Mozilla Will Stop Developing and Selling Firefox OS Smart... by lewisl9029 on Tuesday December 08, 2015 @04:31PM (#10699693)
Absolutely.

Although the market for centralized secure messaging is currently being served adequately by the likes of Signal and Telegram, centralized messaging platforms inevitably leak metadata.

I don't want to belittle the work done by teams that have already started work on distributed messaging platforms like Tox and Matrix (and my own proof-of-concept, Toc [1]), but Mozilla is in a much better position to tackle the problem of decentralized, private messaging that also has great UX, and not just in terms of sheer resources:

1) They have (or at least had) a decentralized identity management platform in Persona.

2) They have a decentralized, zero-knowledge data sync platform in Firefox Sync.

3) They have a lot of influence in the web standards community that they can leverage to push a new federated messaging protocol to succeed XMPP.

This is the kind of work that I think Mozilla should be doing, because they can do it better than anyone else who's willing (i.e. not for-profit corporations, because they have very little to gain by building decentralized apps and federated protocols that have no lock-in whatsoever).

[1] http://toc.im/

Re:Mozilla Will Stop Developing and Selling Firefox OS Smart... by conradev on Tuesday December 08, 2015 @07:00PM (#10700801)
I would also include Ricochet[1] in the list of decentralized messaging tools, which is centered around Tor hidden services.

[1] https://ricochet.im

Re:Mozilla Will Stop Developing and Selling Firefox OS Smart... by mook on Tuesday December 08, 2015 @09:33PM (#10701528)
Also, Mozilla already had some IM support (XMPP, twitter, and yahoo, I think) in Thunderbird / Instantbird. IRC too, but that's a different sort of messaging.
Re:Mozilla Will Stop Developing and Selling Firefox OS Smart... by scrollaway on Tuesday December 08, 2015 @04:19PM (#10699608)
They're trying something with Firefox Hello. Unfortunately, short of Google open sourcing Hangouts and making it a truly open protocol, I don't see a change happening in the IM space any time soon =/
Re:Mozilla Will Stop Developing and Selling Firefox OS Smart... by ianlevesque on Tuesday December 08, 2015 @05:17PM (#10700072)
I think that's a little overly pessimistic. Look how quickly Slack went from non-existent to huge in the messaging space.
Re:Mozilla Will Stop Developing and Selling Firefox OS Smart... by loudmax on Wednesday December 09, 2015 @07:37AM (#10703254)
Isn't Slack just another proprietary platform? They may leverage some open protocols, but I don't see how Slack decentralizes messaging. Am I missing something?
Re:Mozilla Will Stop Developing and Selling Firefox OS Smart... by ianlevesque on Saturday December 19, 2015 @08:33PM (#10765679)
It doesn't, the point is there's still room for this space to be disrupted.
Re:Mozilla Will Stop Developing and Selling Firefox OS Smart... by gutnor on Tuesday December 08, 2015 @08:38PM (#10701306)
Imagine a browser that has a privacy mode using tor ? Privacy in browser nowadays is privacy from your wife or kids, not privacy from anything on the server side.

Seeing how hostile most of the western governments are toward privacy on the internet, that's probably not the best long term strategy for Mozilla though. They could quickly find themselves labelled terrorist organisation ( by mistake ) and have their account frozen ( by mistake ) for a long period of time ( due process, can't rush those stuff )

Re:Mozilla Will Stop Developing and Selling Firefox OS Smart... by niutech on Tuesday December 08, 2015 @10:58PM (#10701819)
Nonsense. Tor Browser is actually based on Mozilla Firefox and it has been alive for long. Nobody would be so mad to call the web browser vendor a terrorist organization.
Re:Mozilla Will Stop Developing and Selling Firefox OS Smart... by kagamine on Wednesday December 09, 2015 @02:59AM (#10702491)
Clearly you don't follow the UK news, the UK govt. have been toying with banning Tor (encryption in general) for a couple of years.

Here is a recent article about it http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/mar/11/tor-should...

Re:Mozilla Will Stop Developing and Selling Firefox OS Smart... by chris_wot on Wednesday December 09, 2015 @08:27PM (#10708238)
If they targeted Mozilla all hell would break loose. Mozilla is no Napster! They would have one heck of a fight on their hands. I don't believe they would win.
Re:Mozilla Will Stop Developing and Selling Firefox OS Smart... by ori_b on Tuesday December 08, 2015 @05:42PM (#10700264)
> I really agree on this. They should focus on a browser that respects privacy and email that respects privacy

I'd love to see it happen, but who would the money come from?

Re:Mozilla Will Stop Developing and Selling Firefox OS Smart... by gsnedders on Tuesday December 08, 2015 @04:40PM (#10699761)
The problem is solving privacy and identity management in the mobile space is hard given how vertically integrated both the iOS and Android eco-systems by Apple and Google respectively. Firefox (and Opera) had failed to make any headway into Android in the years prior.