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Re:Double paid traffic by Pyxl101 on Monday November 30, 2015 @05:24AM (#10648707)
Frequently it seems as though statements by neutrality advocates mention "providers" without naming any. Who are the providers that misbehave, and what are they doing? Can we see a graph of their traffic and a depiction of the misbehavior? (Saturated links, offers to peer and expand the links that are refused, etc.) I'd love it if the evidence were laid out. Unfortunately at the moment, it seems like there's a lot of ambiguous finger-pointing.

What do (presumably) Comcast and these other companies say when you communicate with them about peering, and you ask them why they won't? Anyone with insight into these issues care to share the DLS/cable provider perspective? (Is there some kind of reasonable argument there we're not hearing - "Infrastructure costs are rising, you see, and we built the infrastructure we have now with a government subsidy that's no longer available. So when we expand, it's going to cost 10x as much ... " just to make something up. Is there another side to the story, or is it really just supply/demand where the providers exploit their market power? "Our customers are not likely to drop our Internet service for a competitor just because Netflix is slow. In fact, our data show that they start watching cable TV more, which is good for us - we want cable TV to be sticky. So we'll charge a fee since we're nearly a monopoly and the market will sustain it. Further, since Netflix is where all the traffic is going, we'll just charge them directly rather than expand pipes all around".) [edits]

> For this reason, interfaces are being operated at their highest capacity -- to make paid access to the DSL and cable providers' networks attractive for content providers. The end consumer is then forced to pay double for unlimited access to the Internet.

I don't entirely follow this part. Could someone clarify? Is "operating at their highest capacity" a bad thing? Is the implication "operating at their highest capacity [without expanding capacity when they should]"?

Re:Double paid traffic by Ao7bei3s on Monday November 30, 2015 @06:34AM (#10648883)
> Who are the providers that misbehave

The article is about T-Systems (AS-DTAG), which is the largest ISP in Germany and basically the company we mean when we talk about net neutrality violation here.

Look at the speeds of their exchange points: https://beta.peeringdb.com/net/196 - 34 Gbps total: 1x 20G, 1x 10G, 4x 1G. Seriously, 1Gbps!

Now compare with another ISP with only 25% the revenue: https://beta.peeringdb.com/net/997 - 890 GBps total.

Re:Double paid traffic by fiber on Monday November 30, 2015 @07:12AM (#10648984)
This reflects only the peering capacity available for public peering and only what has been documented by each ISP for that network. Private peerings (that are direct connections to another network) are much much more cost-effective and easier to scale for a large ISP. In any case you can safely assume that DTAGs peering capacity by far exceeds one or the other Tbit, but it's also far from being sufficient capacity after all. They may also be the largest ISP in Germany by user count, while other metrics may vary ;).
Re:Double paid traffic by Ao7bei3s on Monday November 30, 2015 @07:16AM (#10648993)
Private peerings are very cost-effective for DTAG because DTAG usually takes money for them.
Re:Double paid traffic by fiber on Monday November 30, 2015 @07:51AM (#10649100)
While that is certainly true, that is not what I meant. For one, it's very cheap to reach such exchanges for companies like Hetzner, because they usually operate their data centers on the same campus, to safe exactly on that backhaul cost to the exchange. By implication all the ISPs are expected to extend their network into these facilities to pick up traffic. While it's true that some ISPs operate big POPs near exchanges, it's not where their customers are. And both users and data center operators rightfully expect a professionally built network with redundancy etc. In that respect it's not necessarily unfair that they charge for the traffic. (While it is certainly unfair that they don't upgrade their connections to extort outrageous prices from other market participants and what's much worse to contain internet growth on a large scale, which is why Germany is a fairly under-developed country in terms of internet connectivity).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Internet_...

But also, people who work for exchange point operators are the only ones left flying business class in the telecom industry. At the same time public exchanges are a single point of failure in the network that one should(!) design around anyway. There are much cleaner solutions you can design into a network at a fraction of that cost.

Re:Double paid traffic by ccozan on Monday November 30, 2015 @10:22AM (#10649805)
For our reference, you may want to check that list, it is really outdated/onesided [1], and not reflecting the reality. Better refer to ookla/netindex or other similar services [2]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:List_of_countries_by_Inte...

[2] http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bruce-kushnick/americas-ugly-t...

Re:Double paid traffic by ullus12 on Monday November 30, 2015 @06:59AM (#10648949)
Yet you can expect Cable service (Kabeldeutschland/Vodafone) to be to be lossy/congested at every days peek hours.

Whereas DTAG _does_ way better.

I dont like it, but as others have said: Relying on transit peering will not work well once you reach certain traffic levels.

Also you can get Servers from Strato (DTAG Sub) for about the same price as from Hetzner and pump your Traffic directly into a Tier1.

Re:Double paid traffic by merb on Monday November 30, 2015 @08:26AM (#10649223)
That is simple not true (telekom customer). And I know a lot of people on Telekom.

We even needed to contact Github to change our peering since the default route from Github to DTag just sucks.

Our overall bandwidth with Telekom simply sucks. Most networks are really really slow, compared to Kabel Deutschland.

Re:Double paid traffic by ullus12 on Monday November 30, 2015 @08:50AM (#10649314)
> We even needed to contact Github to change our peering since the default route from Github to DTag just sucks.

and they were like "sure cosider it done"?

Re:Double paid traffic by merb on Monday November 30, 2015 @10:03AM (#10649704)
> and they were like "sure cosider it done"?

no. they tried to find a way with us. but after that it didn't worked they changed the routing and it worked.

Re:Double paid traffic by Ao7bei3s on Monday November 30, 2015 @07:15AM (#10648988)
Vodafone doesn't just offer cable service but also DSL and VDSL, and that's rock solid.

The cable service slowdowns are technology inherent. But that's a last-mile problem and not a backbone problem. Also, these providers aren't trying to use their customer base to extort money from hosters.

Re:Double paid traffic by ullus12 on Monday November 30, 2015 @07:27AM (#10649020)
Agree on the last-mile part

yet i doubt that buying from a (DSL-)Reseller is improving service quality and prices are roughly the same.

Re:Double paid traffic by Tepix on Monday November 30, 2015 @07:29AM (#10649027)
I'm a Unitymedia customer in Germany (200mbps down, 10mbps up for 42€/month including VoIP) and they have been pretty good in terms of speed. I haven't noticed any slowdowns. They also make sure that you get a little extra bandwidth so even with overhead you will actually see those advertised transfer rates in the wild.
Re:Double paid traffic by 1gn1t10n on Monday November 30, 2015 @06:32AM (#10648874)
> Is "operating at their highest capacity" a bad thing?

Yes, it's a bad thing. Internet traffic is bursty so usually you have to overprovision a lot to deal with the spikes. Operating at full capacity means that they get money for a service that they cannot fullfil. This is their intended goal such that later they can ask money from whoever wants to have priority.

Re:Double paid traffic by fiber on Monday November 30, 2015 @05:12PM (#10652270)
That is just a different way of saying their (DSL) customers are their product, not their customers.
Re:Double paid traffic by Coding_Cat on Monday November 30, 2015 @05:41AM (#10648746)
I think you are right about the implication. The providers tend to try and double dip by doing one of three things:

* Not upgrading their network as they should

* Discriminating against certain traffic, see Comcast and Netflix speeds

* or by not allowing content providers to connect their CDNs free of charge, which should be a win-win situation if the providers acted in the customers best interests.

I honestly believe that these bussiness practices are the providers digging their own grave. Best case scenario, they make a few quick bucks before laws get passed against this sort of thing, worst case scenario: the big boys get tired of dealing with them and start competing directly (like Google fiber).

Re:Double paid traffic by MrBuddyCasino on Monday November 30, 2015 @05:34AM (#10648725)
The latter. There is no incentive to pay for additional bandwidth if there is enough capacity for everyone, so supply is restricted. Thus the ISP saves on network infrastructure and gets additional income to prioritize higher-status traffic. What a clusterfuck, I'm embarrassed by my government.
Re:Double paid traffic by icebraining on Monday November 30, 2015 @07:35AM (#10649049)
My question is: why aren't the companies being asked to pay for priority telling their users about the problem? Where are the JS libraries that show a warning to the users of those ISPs?
Re:Double paid traffic by Spooky23 on Monday November 30, 2015 @11:40AM (#10650243)
In an (admittedly different) enterprise scenario, I see consistent 50-60% peak utilization as right-sized. 75% or more is tagged for an upgrade or at least analysis to understand the traffic patterns. For a big network to deliver 100 Mbps vs. 1 Mbps connectivity to most locations is a very small cost. The big costs are the fixed costs the initial buildout.

Marginal capacity changes are pretty cheap. There's no technical reason to treat network links as constrained resources. So as a network provider, you only create constraint to make money.

Think of it as food & drink in a movie theatre. A bag of popcorn at the Target snack counter is $1.50. A bag of popcorn at the movies is $9. Same product, both high-margin scenarios -- the difference is you're captive to the movie theatre.

Re:Double paid traffic by scurvy on Monday November 30, 2015 @01:49PM (#10650960)
We start the process to add more peering ports once we see sustained traffic at 40% of port capacity (in PPS or BPS). The process takes a while depending on who you're dealing with, and before you know it, you're up to 80% right before that new port comes online.
Re:Double paid traffic by sajal83 on Monday November 30, 2015 @05:32AM (#10648722)
> I don't entirely follow this part. Could someone clarify? Is "operating at their highest capacity" a bad thing? Is the implication "operating at their highest capacity [without expanding capacity when they should]"?

Yes. Basically existing links (thru transit providers) is saturated, if you(content provider) want good connectivity with these end-user networks you gotta pay more for direct connection.

Re:Double paid traffic by thecatspaw on Monday November 30, 2015 @05:30AM (#10648717)
> Is "operating at their highest capacity" a bad thing?

Yes. This allows providers to say "guys look, we can not increase the traffic going over the lines, so we have to priorize things. Thats 3.50€ a month per uplink"