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Re:How ARM got so successful without the public really noticing by kogepathic on Sunday November 29, 2015 @06:39AM (#10644400)
> Hands up who knows which company designed the iPhone 6s’ 64-bit chip

Apple did. It's been widely acknowledged that the processor inside the iPhone is a custom design which implements the ARMv8 ISA. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_A9

> Furber and his co-designer, Sophie Wilson, had found research from the Berkeley campus of the University of California into a new type of processor: one that simplified the set of instructions it would follow, in order to enable a sleeker, more efficient design. This style of processing was called “reduced instruction set computing”, or Risc, and the Berkeley Risc designs had been put together by just two people, David Patterson and Carlo Sequin.

ARM were hardly the first people to bring a RISC CPU to market: MIPS, SPARC, and POWER are RISC architectures which pre-dated ARM.

> By 2007, Intel had abandoned the excesses of the company’s Pentium line

Pentium is a brand name, which still exists today. What the author is referring to is Intel's "NetBurst" architecture.

> powering the servers at companies like PayPal.

Citation needed. The CEO of X-Gene said PayPal has “has deployed and validated” services based on their CPU, but readily admits to having shipped only 10,000 units, which is just peanuts to datacentre guys. Source: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/04/29/aookied_micro_q4_201...

Overall, I'm happy for ARM's continued success, and I hope that they and the rest of the semiconductor industry will continue to innovate and bring the performance per watt up.

That being said, this Guardian article is crap. It's factually incorrect in places, missing sources for claims, and generally doesn't do anything to actually explain why people supposedly don't know who ARM is.

tl;dr - Some guys in Cambridge, who are fab-less, made a CPU from a RISC design. They license the designs to partners who can add whatever they want around the CPU (or redesign the CPU as long as they conform to the instruction set, as Apple does). The reason they're "not well known" is because they don't sell CPUs themselves, companies like Apple, Qualcomm, MediaTek, etc do.

Re:How ARM got so successful without the public really noticing by sohcahtoa on Sunday November 29, 2015 @08:55AM (#10644564)
> ARM were hardly the first people to bring a RISC CPU to market: MIPS, SPARC, and POWER are RISC architectures which pre-dated ARM.

Minor point: ARM-1-based devices were kinda, sorta, brought to market around '85-'86. That's neck-and-neck with MIPS I. Real ARM-2 based machines in '87 were three years ahead of the RS/6000.

Of course, lots of people were developing RISC architectures in the early 80s, in parallel.

Re:How ARM got so successful without the public really noticing by tacos on Sunday November 29, 2015 @10:08AM (#10644746)
Even Intel, of course. Windows NT started development exclusively on RISC: the Intel i860 ("N-Ten"). Shipped supporting MIPS, DEC Alpha and PowerPC.
Re:How ARM got so successful without the public really noticing by prodmerc on Sunday November 29, 2015 @12:18PM (#10645238)
Not to mention Intel had quite a successful line of ARM CPUs back in the day - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XScale

Which makes articles like this one: http://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/intel-arm-processors-... ridiculous.

"the unthinkable happened. Intel revealed it was going to build ARM processors."

Do your damn research, people :-)

Re:How ARM got so successful without the public really noticing by daemin on Sunday November 29, 2015 @08:45PM (#10647134)
Well from memory Intel sold off the general purpose ARM CPU division to Marvell back in 2006 or so. Though it kept the ARM chips that were specialised for storage or networking IIRC. So technically Intel has always made ARM chips in one form or another, just not any that slot into a mobile phone.
Re:How ARM got so successful without the public really noticing by prodmerc on Sunday November 29, 2015 @10:33PM (#10647513)
I really wanna know the logic behind that decision. They probably thought ARM was not worth it? Despite it being used successfully in Pocket PCs?
Re:How ARM got so successful without the public really noticing by daemin on Sunday November 29, 2015 @10:44PM (#10647567)
Based on what another commented has said it seems Intel bought the ARM license from DEC, and given that they sold off only the consumer ARM chips - keeping the task specific ones - it makes sense in a way. It was so they wouldn't have any internal competition or divided focus away from their low power x86 chips - the Atom's.
Re:How ARM got so successful without the public really noticing by fit2rule on Sunday November 29, 2015 @11:44AM (#10645081)
It was neck and neck, in my opinion. In the UK, ARM ruled, but in the US, the MIPS Magnum series were well received and widely used. MIPS had a chance to be an ARM, but it was squandered.
Re:How ARM got so successful without the public really noticing by simula67 on Sunday November 29, 2015 @12:07PM (#10645188)
> MIPS had a chance to be an ARM, but it was squandered.

I have always wondered how ARM succeeded when MIPS was already around. Anyone know ?

Re:How ARM got so successful without the public really noticing by digi_owl on Sunday November 29, 2015 @12:39PM (#10645322)
Just guessing, but it could have something to do with ARM not doing actual hardware. Instead they license either chip designs or the ISA to anyone willing to pay.

In a way it is reminiscent of the z80 clones that was all over the place in the 80s.

Re:How ARM got so successful without the public really noticing by thesz on Sunday November 29, 2015 @06:16PM (#10646569)
Early ARM designs have group load/store commands. This goes against RISC philosophy. You cannot call ARM a RISC because of that. It is a CISC with simplified decoder.
Re:How ARM got so successful without the public really noticing by pjc50 on Sunday November 29, 2015 @06:44PM (#10646697)
This is the worst single piece of pedantry that I've ever seen on HN.
Re:How ARM got so successful without the public really noticing by thesz on Monday November 30, 2015 @12:28PM (#10650559)
I designed chips for living, despite being software engineer. Including, and not limited to, CPUs. In the design process I had to account for optimizing compilers and possible high-performance and low-energy versions.

So I am very sensitive to the misuse of "RISC trade mark".

Ideal RISC design is very easy to develop. It can be easily tailored to various application domains, including high-performance (OoO) and low-energy. RISC instruction semantics should be simple, all implementation details are hidden. In my opinion, there are only three RISC designs - DEC Alpha, IBM Power and RISC-V. Others contain various design issues that show their inner cogs and that had to be accounted in the designs different from the original one.

(in my MIPS implementation experience I've implemented 33% of MIPS commands in the first month and spent another month accounting for branch delay slot)

ARM contains three deviations from ideal RISC: user-visible PC (read of PC returns PC of command+8!), multi-cycle group load/store commands and condition codes. All three "features" make it difficult to design something different in performance than original ARM.

Re:How ARM got so successful without the public really noticing by dave2000 on Sunday November 29, 2015 @07:25PM (#10646870)
It's amazing what some people find important, isn't it.

Is that pedentry better than the "android isn't really open source because Google doesn't do pull requests" though?

Re:How ARM got so successful without the public really noticing by potrebitel22 on Sunday November 29, 2015 @04:40PM (#10646183)
>pple did. It's been widely acknowledged that the processor inside the iPhone is a custom design which implements the ARMv8 ISA

Citation needed. Different from Anand's mentioning of "custom designed implementation of ARM ISA" on his webpage without any proof and further copied and taken to Wikipedia. One non-verified source cannot be trusted, sorry. Of course the chip is a custom design ( as it mentioned @ Wikipedia ), because ARM generally do not provide the peripherals and you can "bolt" whatever you like. Apple may be a big company, but they definitely lack the skill set to do such large chips themselves. The wild rumor goes to their attempt to ditch BRCM for wifi's chips for ages, something that would have happened if they had the resources to design something themselves. Not to mention the huge chunk of chip on the new macbook 12", rumored to be from the acquisition of Anobit, which if you have some knowledge of design is at least 4 generations behind. That of course is a speculation, much like Anand's quote of "custom ISA implementation" from A8 and onward, but at least the nm process can be seen to be quite old.

Re:How ARM got so successful without the public really noticing by newman314 on Monday November 30, 2015 @12:33AM (#10647923)
Apple did buy PA Semi so they do have some chops there.
Re:How ARM got so successful without the public really noticing by kogepathic on Monday November 30, 2015 @04:20PM (#10651882)
> Citation needed.

> One non-verified source cannot be trusted, sorry.

I don't work for Apple, and if I did I would value my job more over satisfying your need for a citation. But anyway, since I cannot prove or disprove that Apple did design their own chip, which they did, I will point out that NVidia, a much smaller company, has managed to do just what I claimed, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Denver

> Apple may be a big company, but they definitely lack the skill set to do such large chips themselves.

Really? I think their purchase of a processor design company in 2008 speaks to the fact that they do have this talent in house: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P.A._Semi

PA Semi designed their own POWER CPU, which they developed from scratch. Don't tell me these people (who work for Apple now) don't have the capabilities and resources to design a processor which can implement the ARM ISA.

Either provide a citation that proves that Apple hasn't designed their own core implementing the ARM ISA, or stop demanding some from my claim, which has a lot more evidence behind it.

The fact that they have dual sourced CPUs from TSMC and Samsung, which are on different processor nodes, thus requiring a different layout and mask, tells me that Apple's hardware engineers absolutely know what they're doing, and can design the internals of a chip:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/9686/the-apple-iphone-6s-and-i...

Plus, around the time of the PA Semi acquisition, news outlets reported that the engineers were working on a custom CPU for Apple devices: http://appleinsider.com/articles/08/09/15/apples_pa_semi_wor...

I honestly don't know why I put so much time into refuting this. Many other people on the internet think that Apple is designing their own core inside the iPhone, how else would a dual core chip smoking the living shit out of Samsung and Qualcomm's quad and octo core processors?

Here, have another person who says Apple design it themselves. http://apple.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=8083459&cid=506143...

Re:How ARM got so successful without the public really noticing by Zigurd on Sunday November 29, 2015 @10:11AM (#10644750)
There is also an interesting story of the way they were propelled to success, pre-smartphone. I think it went something like Apple needed a chip for the Newton. That begat ARM as an Acorn spin-off. Then Nokia picked it up for GSM phones that needed a proper CPU. Nokia would have been enough to take ARM to a billion unit per year before iPhone. Apple has strict power requirements, and Nokia provided continued focus on power management. Is that about right?
Re:How ARM got so successful without the public really noticing by scholia on Sunday November 29, 2015 @12:30PM (#10645284)
> I think it went something like Apple needed a chip for the Newton. That begat ARM as an Acorn spin-off.

That's correct: the spin-off from Acorn was part of the deal with Apple (done by John Sculley).

However, ARM had three investors: Acorn, Apple and chip company VLSI Technology Inc (VTI).

Re:How ARM got so successful without the public really noticing by tw04 on Sunday November 29, 2015 @02:07PM (#10645620)
I'm more interested to see what Amazon ends up doing with annapura (sp?) labs.
Re:How ARM got so successful without the public really noticing by newman314 on Monday November 30, 2015 @12:29AM (#10647911)
It wasn't clear if Annapurna was still going to make chips available to other companies. Their premise certainly is very interesting and it would be a bummer to be just Amazon specific
Re:How ARM got so successful without the public really noticing by effie on Sunday November 29, 2015 @09:55AM (#10644711)
Thanks, you should write this to the author of that article.