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Re:The Myth of Welfare’s Corrupting Influence on the Poor by bigforbritches on Sunday October 25, 2015 @10:53AM (#10447004)
Agenda or not, data-driven or not, thoroughly studied or not, authoritative-backers or not it all boils down to how people feel about welfare.

All else is largely pencil-pushing. If you want to shape economic policy that is sustainable & impactful, it has to make a large allowance for how people feel about welfare.

Let me elaborate.

You can make well-reasoned arguments and appeal to the sound nature of people and hope that they will understand & internalize your case for welfare. You can back it up with scores of studies that have data stretching multiple decades. You can provide touching anecdotes that tug at the heart strings. You can do all that and yet people will not have a change of heart for more than a fleeting moment.

I will give you an account of how workaday people - sensible people - really think about welfare and handouts in general.

For this, I will stick to America & Americans although this could easily be extrapolated to other parts of the world.

I strongly believe that most non-welfare dependent ( & even most welfare-resenting ) Americans are like me. For this purpose let me also exclude the portion of the population that are impetuously dismissive of the "freeloaders" and "deadbeats". Including them would not be helpful here.

Having said that I think most sensible Americans are fine with some form of "public assistance" ( lump into this whatever forms of unearned perks, benefits, allowances, tax breaks, subsidies etc that the government lavishes on the low income or even some middle income people ) for those people who have fallen on hard times.

Most sensible Americans are also fine with those same forms of "public assistance" being bestowed upon those same sections of the public for even extended durations of their lifetimes. I think sensible Americans get that the ill effects of an impoverished childhood & other social curses can stretch for the better part of a generation, if not more.

What most sensible Americans won't stand for is when those benefits are still lavished on those sections of the society even when those previously disenfranchised people are now, well, no longer beggared.

Take the case of San Francisco.

It is not uncommon to find yourself dining at a restaurant where your fellow diners constitute a good chunk of these previously beggared classes.

You think ,"good for them."

It is not uncommon to find them shopping at upmarket home furnishing stores.

You think,"hmm...okay..they share my taste in rugs."

It is also not uncommon to find them gushingly sharing photos & videos of their fantastic vacations to Iceland or Namibia.

You think, "I wish I could take a month away from work. Well, perhaps next year."

It is not uncommon to find your kids struggle to stuff their applications to the same top tier colleges as these previously beggared classes who are suddenly competing with your flock, to be one among the lucky 6% or 7% that constitute the incoming class at a Yale, Columbia or Harvard.

Now you think, "screw all these welfare programs for deadbeats and moochers."

That's what it all boils down to.

Everyone's fine with handouts until it starts to get too close to home.

Your entitlements end where my feelings of hurt begin.

We can differ on the degree & scale but that's the general sentiment of most sensible workaday Americans.

Re:The Myth of Welfare’s Corrupting Influence on the Poor by rdtsc on Sunday October 25, 2015 @11:23AM (#10447102)
Except it is not that simple. People have opinions about welfare without even interacting with individuals taking advantage of it.

Have you directly stopped and talked to those people buying rugs? Or at a restaurant? Are you sure they are not just hipster kids wearing second-hand clothes but who might work at Google or have a rich daddy with a trust fund?. Maybe you did, but I doubt it.

So a lot of opinions and "feels" people have about welfare is what they are _told_ to have. By their parents, teacher, media, friends, TV, magazines, movies, etc.

I lived with a conservative family for many years, and I was of firm opionion that welfare queens are everywhere wasting pulblic's money and that's where all out taxes were. It was a very sincere and string opionion. But it was put in not head not my socializing with "welfare queens" but by White Middle Class Americans, who also didn't really socialize much with welfare recipients, but instead listened to Fox News all day every day.

So to make story short, it is about the "feels" but the feels are often easily updated/manipulated/used by whomever you let control your thought processes.

Re:The Myth of Welfare’s Corrupting Influence on the Poor by JupiterMoon on Sunday October 25, 2015 @03:15PM (#10447959)
The OP's post when read carefully was actually a lot more nuanced than you give her credit for.
Re:The Myth of Welfare’s Corrupting Influence on the Poor by rdtsc on Sunday October 25, 2015 @03:25PM (#10448017)
Can you expand a bit on that?
Re:The Myth of Welfare’s Corrupting Influence on the Poor by JupiterMoon on Sunday October 25, 2015 @03:32PM (#10448042)
> Most sensible Americans are also fine with those same forms of "public assistance" being bestowed upon those same sections of the public for even extended durations of their lifetimes. I think sensible Americans get that the ill effects of an impoverished childhood & other social curses can stretch for the better part of a generation, if not more.

This stuck out for me.

I got the impression that she has mixed feelings about assistance programs but recognises their importance whilst wanting them to be applied fairly.

Re:The Myth of Welfare’s Corrupting Influence on the Poor by rdtsc on Sunday October 25, 2015 @03:57PM (#10448134)
Thanks JupiterMoon!

Yeah I agree with that point they made. I just didn't explicitly say it. I should have probably.

What I focused on was the idea that it often boils down to a feeling. And I agree with that too, but I wanted to point that it is important how people arrive at those feelings.

GP showed some example, but I didn't find those convincing. I think a lot of what people believe and think gets acquired and filtered through 3rd party sources (media, friends, parents, teacher etc). And even though a lot of people have strong feelings about welfare, they might not have gotten those from their own experiences.

And then of course there are whole industries (marketing, pr, propaganda) whose goal is manage feeling, perceptions and ideas in others.

Anyway, to recap I didn't disagree with their main idea, just wanted to expand on one part of it.

Re:The Myth of Welfare’s Corrupting Influence on the Poor by jokoon on Sunday October 25, 2015 @12:21PM (#10447281)
> most sensible workaday Americans

Let those people be thankful they have a job, instead of complaining about the one who don't. If they are not satisfied, let them ask for a raise or quit and join people on welfare.

Your feelings of "hurt" makes me chuckle. Handouts have the merits of inhibiting crime and violence. You do not want to have so many people on the street without anything to put a foot on, ready to organize for riots and reaping chaos.

Re:The Myth of Welfare’s Corrupting Influence on the Poor by lwhalen on Sunday October 25, 2015 @12:57PM (#10447413)
Ask the Anglo-Saxons how well Danegeld worked out for them.
Re:The Myth of Welfare’s Corrupting Influence on the Poor by AC__ on Sunday October 25, 2015 @11:23AM (#10447103)
The nice white guy never wins(trust me I know)
Re:The Myth of Welfare’s Corrupting Influence on the Poor by JupiterMoon on Sunday October 25, 2015 @11:35AM (#10447140)
Right so we should maximise the efficiency of welfare programs and ensure that they are fair (in some way). If it is true that cash is better than vouchers in terms of efficiency then we should give cash.