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Re:Land-value tax: Why Henry George had a point by humanrebar on Saturday October 24, 2015 @06:30AM (#10443131)
> There is something fundamentally wrong with taxing an absence of income.

I'd argue the other way, that taxing income is discouraging production. We should be taxing consumption more than we are. If you see deeded property as a non-renewable resource, then ensuring good use through taxation seems essential, not just a good idea. Now, land is not exactly non-renewable since we can build up, as you point out, but in densely developed urban areas, it's pretty close to non-renewable.

We just had a land bubble, and many think the bubble is reinflating, at least in some areas. Putting a check on irrational pricing by adding a consumption tax here seems like a plan worth discussing to me.

Re:Land-value tax: Why Henry George had a point by ZenoArrow on Saturday October 24, 2015 @07:07AM (#10443201)
To me, it's tackling the wrong problem.

The issue with property is that they are being used as an investment opportunity, which undermines the purpose that most people want property for, which is as an affordable place to live.

What we want to discourage is people using property to invest, but without penalising those who want somewhere to live. Therefore, if we're going to have a land use tax it should be based on how someone uses it. If a property is your only home anywhere in the world, then it should be exempt, but anything outside your main home could be taxed. That should discourage those people who buy property but barely live there from driving up prices for the people who want to live there.

Re:Land-value tax: Why Henry George had a point by lmm on Saturday October 24, 2015 @04:05PM (#10444684)
That kind of restriction is easy to game, and creates perverse incentives. Imagine a billionaire with an enormous house: if they start renting out half of it to someone else, suddenly they have to pay more taxes? That's not right.

Rental prices are already as high as the market will bear (people can't choose not to have a house, so demand is pretty inelastic). A land value tax does exactly what we want: it will keep the net rental price the same, but push down the ownership price. So we'd see a lot less buy-to-let, and more people able to buy homes. As a bonus, it would make it harder for corrupt foreigners to hold empty property as emergency funds, since someone would have to be paying the taxes on it.

Re:Land-value tax: Why Henry George had a point by ZenoArrow on Sunday October 25, 2015 @06:09AM (#10446509)
> "That kind of restriction is easy to game, and creates perverse incentives. Imagine a billionaire with an enormous house: if they start renting out half of it to someone else, suddenly they have to pay more taxes? That's not right."

How is that creating a perverse incentive? If someone seeks to transform their primary residence from somewhere they live to somewhere they make money, then what's the problem in taxing them?

Also, with regards to the rules of the proposed tax exemption, quoting jrs235... "*2b and only .25 acres of land would be exempt. (Of some other generally agreed amount)""

Re:Land-value tax: Why Henry George had a point by lmm on Monday October 26, 2015 @06:18PM (#10454879)
That distorts the incentives by encouraging everyone to use the full exempt size. Why not just give everyone a fixed amount of money to spend as they wish? That way people who want a substantial house can spend it on their land tax, and people who have better uses for it can spend it on those instead.
Re:Land-value tax: Why Henry George had a point by eru on Sunday October 25, 2015 @07:35AM (#10446661)
The perverse incentive is: the billionaire would be wasting less space for himself and sharing it with other people---but the tax system would discourage that.
Re:Land-value tax: Why Henry George had a point by ZenoArrow on Sunday October 25, 2015 @12:07PM (#10447225)
Based on the relatively small number of billionaires/rich people in the world, that's a compromise I'm willing to make. If the rich want to house the poor they can do so through a charitable foundation.

Furthermore, as has been pointed out already, we could make it so that only properties that sit within a predetermined land mass size would be exempt from tax.

Re:Land-value tax: Why Henry George had a point by eru on Monday October 26, 2015 @06:26AM (#10450459)
Why go by size and not by value? Someone having a huge estate in the middle of nowhere is not a problem, vs occupying the same amount of space (or even a much smaller, but still large one) in the city centre is.
Re:Land-value tax: Why Henry George had a point by ZenoArrow on Saturday October 31, 2015 @09:04AM (#10482526)
Value is open to fluctuations, size is not.

A large estate in the middle of nowhere is still potentially wasteful. For example, could that land not be used for farming or wildlife? How many bathrooms does one person need?

Re:Land-value tax: Why Henry George had a point by humanrebar on Saturday October 24, 2015 @07:19AM (#10443230)
So why not aggressively tax profits from property sales then?

Tax-free primary residences causes at least two problems:

1. People want places to work and shop, too.

2. You end up having to regulate what counts as a primary residence so that Mr. O'Billionaire doesn't get an entire city block tax free. How does working from home affect your tax rate, etc.

Re:Land-value tax: Why Henry George had a point by lmm on Saturday October 24, 2015 @04:07PM (#10444688)
Taxing sales encourages people to hold onto property that they're not really using optimally any more, which is the opposite of what we want.
Re:Land-value tax: Why Henry George had a point by humanrebar on Saturday October 24, 2015 @10:38PM (#10445735)
You're taxing profits, not sales. If the value of land more closely tracked inflation, people will look to other markets for growth.

To put it another way, why don't people sit on their cash? They're taxed on most cash transactions, right?

Re:Land-value tax: Why Henry George had a point by lmm on Sunday October 25, 2015 @05:00AM (#10446397)
> If the value of land more closely tracked inflation, people will look to other markets for growth.

Sure, but as long as it can be used to extract rent at no cost, the value of land is going to keep going up.

> why don't people sit on their cash? They're taxed on most cash transactions, right?

Inflation is a de facto tax on holding cash. Without it people probably would sit on their cash.

Re:Land-value tax: Why Henry George had a point by ZenoArrow on Saturday October 24, 2015 @07:33AM (#10443258)
1. Taxes on companies could be adjusted to compensate for the introduction of a land use tax.

2. A primary residence is where you live most of the year. To have any property qualify you would need to spend more than 6 months in a year within a country, and would also need to specify which of the properties you own in that country is your primary residence. Problem solved.

Re:Land-value tax: Why Henry George had a point by jrs235 on Saturday October 24, 2015 @08:39AM (#10443415)
*2b and only .25 acres of land would be exempt. (Of some other generally agreed amount)
Re:Land-value tax: Why Henry George had a point by eru on Sunday October 25, 2015 @07:37AM (#10446663)
No exemption necessary. Just eg pay out all the land value tax as a basic income. And automatically anyone sitting on less than the average amount of land (in terms of value, not size), will get a net income. People sitting on more, will make a net payment.
Re:Land-value tax: Why Henry George had a point by ZenoArrow on Sunday October 25, 2015 @12:18PM (#10447269)
Let's not make it unnecessarily complicated. Basic income is a good idea on its own, but mix it with land use taxation and you get into all sorts of problems. For example, how do handle a rented block of flats, would your land usage tax/income vary depending on how many tenants were currently renting in that block of flats?

Tax exemption for primary residences (under a certain size) + basic income is a far more flexible arrangement, and you lose none of the benefits of determining basic income on land use.

Re:Land-value tax: Why Henry George had a point by eru on Monday October 26, 2015 @06:25AM (#10450456)
> [...] would your land usage tax/income vary depending on how many tenants were currently renting in that block of flats?

It's a land value tax, not land usage tax. So it would be independent on what you do with the land. (Basically it would be driven by the opportunity costs of what someone else could be doing with the land instead.)

> Tax exemption for primary residences (under a certain size) + basic income is a far more flexible arrangement, and you lose none of the benefits of determining basic income on land use.

Why? That's much more complicated, and full of loopholes.

I do agree that tying land value tax to financing basic income is only potentially a good idea, not necessarily.

Re:Land-value tax: Why Henry George had a point by humanrebar on Saturday October 24, 2015 @10:24AM (#10443676)
But why not just tax profits from sales instead of fiddling around and implicitly creating special interest groups?
Re:Land-value tax: Why Henry George had a point by ZenoArrow on Saturday October 24, 2015 @10:31AM (#10443697)
Taxing sales doesn't tackle the misuse of land that has already been sold.
Re:Land-value tax: Why Henry George had a point by humanrebar on Saturday October 24, 2015 @10:35PM (#10445727)
Sure it does. It discourages using land for speculation. If the appreciation curve flattens out, some people buying property as an investment will look to other markets that don't impact the standard of living so directly.
Re:Land-value tax: Why Henry George had a point by ZenoArrow on Sunday October 25, 2015 @06:02AM (#10446497)
What about the land people already own?
Re:Land-value tax: Why Henry George had a point by loup-vaillant on Saturday October 24, 2015 @07:54AM (#10443316)
Remember that most people do not own their home. Land value tax or no, most landlords are going to price their rent as high as they can get away with. Tenants are effectively paying a land value tax (the rent), whose amount is determined by the market.

Generalising land value tax effectively makes everyone a tenant —land property is abolished. This sounds revolutionary, but since this affects only a minority, I'm not sure how much of a change this would really be. I'm pretty sure for instance that it wouldn't rise the renting prices in big cities.

Re:Land-value tax: Why Henry George had a point by eru on Sunday October 25, 2015 @07:41AM (#10446669)
Yes, you got the effects exactly right. The land value tax would have no direct effects on rent. That's why it's such an awesome tax: it does not distort economic activity. Unlike eg income tax which discourages working.

Pro-forma the land will still be in private hands, thus encouraging people to improve it. (Remember: buildings are not taxed, only the land.)

The government will be very interested in improving the value of land, eg by making saner infrastructure investments, because they automatically get more tax money to play with that way.

Re:Land-value tax: Why Henry George had a point by ZenoArrow on Saturday October 24, 2015 @09:38AM (#10443549)
Land property isn't abolished by taxing it.

With regards to the rental market, people will only rent where they can afford, which is exactly the same as now, what it does change is the amount of profit that landlords can make from each property. If we have a land use tax I'd like to see it increase based on the number of properties you own, which would discourage people buying large numbers of properties just to rent them out.

Again, the purpose of the tax should be to curb the demand for property as an investment. If you do that the increase in house prices should come down, and as a side benefit there's less incentive for companies to expand nationally, which would increase diversity in the marketplace.

Re:Land-value tax: Why Henry George had a point by cm2187 on Saturday October 24, 2015 @06:41AM (#10443156)
If you agree that there will be no further densification of already developped urban area (whether because of planning restrictions or physical constraints), then adding taxes isn't an incentive to better using the land. Which was the point of this tax.

Preventing bubbles is another problem. I think in London the problem is that brits have this curious obsession with owning property and be willing to bid as much as they legally can, burrying themselves into debt, in order to achieve that. This is compounded with the lack of supply and foreigners using London property as a safe. But unless this obsession ceases, adding taxes or limits to borrowing isn't going to prevent bubbles. In fact the recent increase in stamp duty on expensive properties does not seem to have any effect.

Re:Land-value tax: Why Henry George had a point by twic on Saturday October 24, 2015 @07:02AM (#10443188)
> If you agree that there will be no further densification of already developped urban area (whether because of planning restrictions or physical constraints), then adding taxes isn't an incentive to better using the land.

This is key. A land value tax would have to go hand-in-hand with measures to allow density to increase. That would mean changes in planning laws, and also building of infrastructure like transport, doctors' surgeries, schools, etc. The former can be done at the stroke of a pen, the latter can be funded from the increased tax receipts that come with higher density.

Re:Land-value tax: Why Henry George had a point by cm2187 on Saturday October 24, 2015 @07:08AM (#10443202)
I agree but I don't think a tax would be needed where there is a strong housing supply crisis if planning restrictions are relaxed. Property developpers are already frenetically building residential skycrappers where they can in London.
Re:Land-value tax: Why Henry George had a point by mrec on Saturday October 24, 2015 @07:37AM (#10443270)
You're not seriously holding up London as an example of a functioning housing market, are you?
Re:Land-value tax: Why Henry George had a point by cm2187 on Saturday October 24, 2015 @07:56AM (#10443321)
I am merely suggesting that in the areas where there are little planning restrictions, the developpers do build the much needed housing supply.
Re:Land-value tax: Why Henry George had a point by twic on Saturday October 24, 2015 @04:49PM (#10444814)
My point was that it's not enough to just build housing - you need to make sure the supply of public infrastructure increases accordingly. This is an existing problem in London, hence section 106 agreements and all that:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planning_gain

Re:Land-value tax: Why Henry George had a point by biehl on Saturday October 24, 2015 @04:16PM (#10444713)
[if no densification]...then adding taxes isn't an incentive to better using the land. Which was the point of this tax.

You seem to equate "densification" and "better using the land". That is a narrow definition of "better using the land".

In strictly utilitarian terms any change that increases total utility would be "better using the land", so if a tax increase on land makes some current residents reprioritise their money and decide to move, giving space to other people who value the location more, then that is "better using the land".

Re:Land-value tax: Why Henry George had a point by cm2187 on Sunday October 25, 2015 @04:52AM (#10446385)
Because substituting people does nothing to the housing supply. The only thing that will increase the supply is increasing the density or expanding. The later being very challenged by the TFL infrastructures.
Re:Land-value tax: Why Henry George had a point by eru on Sunday October 25, 2015 @07:43AM (#10446673)
If the government gets to reap some of the benefits that densification brings to the value of land, it would be harder for NIMBYs to argue in favour of use restrictions. Thus the land value tax might help with densification. But only indirectly.