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Re:Guide to Your Equity by tptacek on Friday October 09, 2015 @02:43PM (#10362408)
Your stock options expire 10 years after they were issued or 30 days after you stop working with Clef

This market standard provision in startup employee equity agreements is probably the single biggest obstacle to realizing a gain from employee equity.

What it means is that when you leave your job, if you want to capture any potential upside from your options, you're required to execute them, paying your own money for actual shares. Depending on the amount of equity you have, this may or may not be a meaningful amount of money, but it is in any case a painful decision to have to make.

Companies like Pinterest have done things to address this flaw; they allow employees who no longer work at the firm to retain their vested options without executing them for several years.

Re:Guide to Your Equity by jessepollak on Friday October 09, 2015 @02:45PM (#10362421)
Thanks for the feedback! We just realized this document is actually out of date with our legal contracts.

I've opened up a PR with the change here (https://github.com/clef/handbook/pull/56), though it may be 10 years rather than 7, so I'm waiting for confirmation from our CEO before merging :)

EDIT: Our CEO's response was: "this is more complicated than just changing that number, give me some time to write the fully change up." Incoming!

EDIT #2: Updated with the 7 year number and a more depth explanation :) - thanks @brennenHN!

Re:Guide to Your Equity by andreasklinger on Friday October 09, 2015 @02:55PM (#10362503)
Just to say this directly: You guys laying this out transparent to your team (and policies in favor of your team) is an amazing and impressive thing.

Personally i also believe it's a huge marketing/hiring benefit.

Startups live of implicit trust of their employees (imo their core asset)

Larger companies require explicit agreements with them

Very often when startups become larger companies, this trust breaks.

Having those explicit agreements upfront & transparent (before even joining a company) increases this trust a lot.

Kudos for doing so

Re:Guide to Your Equity by jessepollak on Friday October 09, 2015 @02:57PM (#10362513)
Thanks Andreas! I know this isn't necessarily a "product," but thoughts on putting it on PH?
Re:Guide to Your Equity by andreasklinger on Thursday October 15, 2015 @09:56AM (#10393130)
i dont make those calls (community & community moderators do)

but from my pov: doesnt really make sense as content on PH

it's more comparable to an really awesome blogpost

HN is by far the better place for it

Re:Guide to Your Equity by SeoxyS on Friday October 09, 2015 @02:55PM (#10362504)
If I understand the rules correctly, an ISO that is exercised more than 90 days after leaving a job is treated as an NSO, which means that it will be taxed at regular income tax rates instead of having the ability to be taxed at long-term cap gains rate. (This could reduce their value by an additional 15%+.)

That said, it's irrelevant if you exercise and sell an ISO at the same time, because short-term cap gains are taxed as income tax, too.

The real interesting term is having the ability to early exercise your entire stock grant, before it vests and before there is a spread between its strike price and fair market value. (The company would have a repurchase right, to implement the vesting schedule.) That way the cost is very low, and there's no worry of having to exercise in the future when it could be taxed unfavorably, and the clock for long-term capital gains starts early.

Re:Guide to Your Equity by bradleyjg on Friday October 09, 2015 @03:08PM (#10362578)
If there's a repurchase agreement that allows the company to buy back the stock for less than market value (and presumably accompanying transfer limitations) I wonder if the IRS would take the position that it is income only after the repurchase agreement expires at the FMV at that point in time.
Re:Guide to Your Equity by trjordan on Friday October 09, 2015 @03:19PM (#10362640)
The way it works for founders is that you get actual stock, and vesting is implemented with a repurchase right. The IRS considers the stock to be an "asset at risk", meaning that you don't actually realize the value as income until the repurchase right goes away. Because this happens over time, it practically means founder stock is, by default, treated as being earned every month. This is no big deal in the beginning, but if you change the valuation of the company, suddenly each monthly stock grant has a discrepancy between what you paid for it and what it's worth. Therefore, it's income, therefore, you owe taxes on it.

The way to fix this is an 83(b) election, which lets you say, "No, I'm taking the risk of this all up front. I want to pay taxes on it, even though the asset is at risk." In this specific case, it's a no-brainer: there are no taxes today, so of course I'll pay that $0.

If you want to do this with employee options, you have to set up early exercise rights. I think early exercise is done via 83(b) for employees, but I'm not 100% on that. My company isn't big enough that we've had to cross that bridge :)

Re:Guide to Your Equity by toast0 on Friday October 09, 2015 @04:18PM (#10363008)
> If you want to do this with employee options, you have to set up early exercise rights. I think early exercise is done via 83(b) for employees, but I'm not 100% on that.

Yes, if you early exercise ISOs, you would want to file an 83(b) to pay the $0 ordinary income tax burden up front (and get long term capital gains later). I'm not sure if you can file an 83(b) on an NSO.

Re:Guide to Your Equity by brianwawok on Friday October 09, 2015 @05:57PM (#10363495)
Is $0 legal? I thought normally you gave the stock 1 billionth of a penny of value and paid your $1 in tax.
Re:Guide to Your Equity by SeoxyS on Friday October 09, 2015 @06:14PM (#10363567)
It's legal, not because the stock has no value, but because the spread (i.e. the difference) between the strike price of the option (e.g. $0.01/option) and the stock's value (e.g. $0.01/share) is $0. That's the profit, so that's what you pay tax on.
Re:Guide to Your Equity by gkop on Friday October 09, 2015 @05:15PM (#10363322)
Yes, you can file an 83(b) when early exercising NSOs. In fact, some lawyers may advise you to take NSOs over ISOs for the portion of the grant you early exercise.
Re:Guide to Your Equity by GauntletWizard on Friday October 09, 2015 @05:10PM (#10363300)
It sounds like an incredibly complicated process to get to "These options are no longer options, they are stock with basis zero"; Am I correct?
Re:Guide to Your Equity by toast0 on Friday October 09, 2015 @07:32PM (#10363838)
It's a little complicated, but it can be very helpful. The basis isn't zero either, it's what you paid to exercise the option. The tax due at time of exercise is $0 because the fair market value is the same as what you paid (assuming you exercise either at the time of the grant, or at least before the next evaluation of the FMV). The benefit is if/when you sell, if you've held everything for the right period, you can pay long term capital gains tax on the gain, instead of ordinary income like you would if you held onto the option as an option.
Re:Guide to Your Equity by epa on Friday October 09, 2015 @03:05PM (#10362557)
It should be noted - an option containing an early exercise attribute is typically rare for common option holders and usually only reserved for management. I.e. most people with a typical amount of options (~5,000) would typically not have this ability.
Re:Guide to Your Equity by rdl on Friday October 09, 2015 @05:21PM (#10363343)
Less true now. It's $1-3k/employee for the company to deal with it, but a lot of companies include ee, even up to the point where they switch to RSUs.
Re:Guide to Your Equity by Teodolfo on Saturday October 10, 2015 @02:16AM (#10364690)
Many people would prefer the NSO since they don't lose out on vested shares upon departure (or get saddled with a massive tax bill). If you have a good chunk of equity, the outcome can be pretty binary: worth something substantial or basically nothing, in which case the slightly higher tax isn't nearly as important as actually getting a piece.
Re:Guide to Your Equity by tptacek on Friday October 09, 2015 @02:47PM (#10362436)
\o/

You should definitely soak up some credit for having that term. :)

Re:Guide to Your Equity by famousactress on Friday October 09, 2015 @03:18PM (#10362636)
And for how it played out! I'm sure that this wasn't what happened but it does occur to me that this pattern makes for a pretty good HN-hack by leveraging HN negativity/cynicism and then swooping in with an "oops - it's actually exactly what everyone thought it should be!". Definitely more net attention this way than would have been if it had just read this way originally.
Re:Guide to Your Equity by boha on Friday October 09, 2015 @05:47PM (#10363462)
I just love how a term that has so much material impact for so many people swung from Not Great to Industry-Leading Excellent . . . from a HN comment, to a PR, and merged . . . in a couple of hours.
Re:Guide to Your Equity by tempestn on Saturday October 10, 2015 @12:00AM (#10364465)
I don't think the actual term changed, just the documentation.
Re:Guide to Your Equity by jessepollak on Friday October 09, 2015 @03:23PM (#10362665)
Wasn't intentional, but I like your thinking :P
[dead]
Re:Guide to Your Equity by dmor on Friday October 09, 2015 @09:17PM (#10364074)
Don't be the jerk, this comment is absolutely against the spirit of Hacker News. Get your mind right, you're ruining the community when you make posts like this.
Re:Guide to Your Equity by hesdeadjim on Friday October 09, 2015 @04:10PM (#10362966)
This is my major rub with ISO's. Their sentence sums up the problem perfectly: "You’ll still be able to buy it for $1 (and then sell it immediately for a profit of $19)."

How am I supposed to sell a stock immediately if I have no market to sell it on because the company is private?

In my opinion, ISO's drastically favor the employer. If I am unhappy and wish to leave, but have vested two years of options, I am forced to either a) throw them away after 30 days or b) purchase them and take on a potentially enormous tax burden unless I do actually have the ability to sell them immediately.

Additionally, by waiting to exercise at a later date I further push back the amount of time it takes to qualify for long term capital gains when selling the remaining portion of the stock.

I was in the exact situation I describe about three years ago when I was very unhappy and wished to look for something new. I had vested an extremely generous ISO grant that, should I have exercised it, would have bankrupted me from the tax bill. My stock was worth 100x what my strike price was, so in essence, I was the "victim" of the company being extremely successful. My way out of this problem was simply luck: we got bought four months after this personal crisis started.

I also found myself feeling like a second class citizen as time wore on. I had been a first employee and helped build the company into what it was, and I felt involved and informed with most everything going on. As time wore on, we became successful and grew substantially and I found myself in a situation where I was becoming simply a senior member of the engineering team. I was certainly not an owner, despite what my time, acceptance of risk, and vested options would imply after four years of hard work.

If companies really believed in the value of an ISO they would put their money where their mouth is and have a stock purchase program that helps alleviate the tax burden over time. It's that, or allow option holders to keep their options for many years after employment terminates. As an owner, what do you want -- option holders that happily stick around even when they could leave or employees who feel they are forced to stay regardless of what happens?

Re:Guide to Your Equity by gohrt on Friday October 09, 2015 @05:28PM (#10363375)
A recent trend (that employees should push for) are yearly (or more often) buyback events, where the current major investors and new Series X investors offer to liquidate current/former employee positions.
Re:Guide to Your Equity by hesdeadjim on Friday October 09, 2015 @05:35PM (#10363413)
Agreed. It's an act of good faith that brings the owner/option holder arrangement more into balance as a company's situation changes. In general I am in favor of any action that attempts to accomplish this.
Re:Guide to Your Equity by grellas on Friday October 09, 2015 @03:04PM (#10362552)
Federal tax law generally requires that unexercised options expire not later than 90 days after termination as one of the conditions to their keeping ISO status.

Startups by and large have held fast to this requirement.

A few, such as Pinterest, have agreed to extend the 90-day expiration period out for several years. This allows employees who hold vested options having potentially significant value to leave their employment and not have to face the choice of losing such options, on the one hand, or doing an immediate exercise that might trigger a large tax while being left with no near-term ability to liquidate the underlying stock so as to pay that tax (and further facing the risk that the underlying stock might decline in value, leaving them having paid a gratuitous tax on stock that may subsequently have little or no value).

This is an important and very good fix but it does destroy the ISO status of the options and converts them to NQOs.

If the 90-day restriction, therefore, is not built into default plan documents, the company cannot offer ISOs to its employees. It is thus not normally an option for startups to eliminate the restriction wholesale. Any discussion of this issue needs to take this into account because there are various trade-offs in doing it one way or the other, at least one of which may not be good for employees.

Re:Guide to Your Equity by nostrademons on Friday October 09, 2015 @04:07PM (#10362948)
Is it possible to have ISOs that convert to NQs if held past the 90-day expiration period, but don't actually expire until several years in the future? Or must they be NQs from the beginning if they have an expiration period more than 90 days past date of termination?
Re:Guide to Your Equity by gkop on Friday October 09, 2015 @05:20PM (#10363342)
The article now answers this, I believe:

> You have 7 years to exercise your [ISOs] after you stop working at Clef, but by law the options only count as ISOs for 90 days after you stop working. Once those 90 days are up, the options count as non-qualified stock options

https://github.com/clef/handbook/blob/master/Hiring%20Docume...

Re:Guide to Your Equity by asabjorn on Friday October 09, 2015 @02:58PM (#10362516)
Personally I chose to join a famous later stage startup instead of a startup for this very reason. Both offered great compensation and fun roles, but while the later stage startup gives me a lot of RSUs that will soon be liquid the earlier stage startup gives me stock options that expire under these kind of unfavorable terms.

There is a bit of a double standard on stock vesting between founders and early stage employees. Both take about the same amount of risk and the employees frequently give up more salary for less equity. However, while founders owns all vested stock outright the employee stock options most often expire after 30 to 90 days.

The quick stock option expiration is especially problematic since the termination might not be voluntary, and might be a result of changing life circumstances or a company-initiated termination.

Re:Guide to Your Equity by tinkerrr on Friday October 09, 2015 @04:04PM (#10362927)
The best practice is for founders to vest at the same schedule as employees, so founder shares also vest at the same rate over 4 years. This is recommended by YC and many others, and most startups follow this. Founder shares do not vest outright in most cases.
Re:Guide to Your Equity by asabjorn on Friday October 09, 2015 @04:17PM (#10363003)
vesting over 4 years in monthly increments with a year cliff is standard, so I did not make a point about that. Founders normally pre exercise their stock at low cost so they are not subject to expiration of vested stock. Employee stock options are often too expensive for that, and combined with the 30 to 90 day expiration this makes the employee terms undesirable versus the founder terms.
Re:Guide to Your Equity by rdl on Friday October 09, 2015 @04:44PM (#10363164)
No, founders usually BUY restricted stock, not options. This can be offered to employees, too, as long as the price is reasonable.

At the beginning, a company is usually $100 or so in total, and the founders pony up $20 or so each to buy their shares. The company can buy back the portion of unvested stuff for the balance of the $20 until it vests.

83b election gets you out of tax hell, too.

Talk to your lawyer.

Re:Guide to Your Equity by asabjorn on Friday October 09, 2015 @05:19PM (#10363336)
That is correct, but the difference between the instruments is not relevant to my statement. I bought restricted stock when I founded a company, which vested over four years, and have taken options when joining as an employee. Almost chose to do an 83b election on my options using a loan from a startup I joined, in order to improve my tems, but I am happy I did not do so. Considering the risk of failure it is generally advisable to diversify your investments more than that.

Edit: rdl , for the loan from the company to do the 83b election to be a considered a loan by the irs it must have almost full recourse. You will be liable for it and the creditors will ask for the loan amount in case of failure.

Re:Guide to Your Equity by rdl on Friday October 09, 2015 @05:24PM (#10363351)
Yeah, but in an early company it shouldn't matter as much -- these guys are pre-409A so you could easily argue $500k corp valuation and thus the guy with 1% of the company has $5k of options to exercise. And in a later company you probably don't get 1%. It's probably in the $1k-50k to exercise options in most companies.

A loan which is somehow forgivable for the stock seems like it could solve this; if the stock is worthless, return it instead of the loan. (I thought you can do that? But I guess you can't?)

Re:Guide to Your Equity by rdl on Friday October 09, 2015 @05:37PM (#10363423)
Wow, this is stupid tax crap, but there seems to be a workaround.

http://www.ecjlaw.com/22505/ecj-viewpoints/taxing-matters/ho...

"Here is how it works: The employer transfers the stock to the employees at no cost, and the employees make the Section 83(b) election to accelerate the taxable event to the date of transfer. That requires the employees to recognize ordinary income in an amount equal to the value of the stock and enables the employer to report an ordinary noncash deduction equal to the same amount.

The employer then finances the employees’ income-tax liability with a nonrecourse loan to the employees (at today’s low interest rates) secured by the restricted stock. Since this doesn’t involve the financing of the employees’ purchase price of the stock, the restricted stock grant would be considered a “transfer” of the stock, thus closing the compensation element of the transaction upon transfer because the Section 83(b) election is made. This avoids the tax uncertainty created by financing the actual stock acquisition with a nonrecourse loan and the requirement of a substantial cash down payment by the employees or, alternatively, a substantial portion of the acquisition note’s being recourse.

Although employees must still pay the ordinary income tax incurred on the date of grant, they have deferred the payment of the tax by means of the employer’s nonrecourse loan. The employer is permitted a noncash deduction in the same amount and at the same time, while the employees are required to include the compensation element of the restricted stock grant in income."

Re:Guide to Your Equity by asabjorn on Friday October 09, 2015 @06:10PM (#10363549)
Ianal, but this might work. However, the irs might look at it as tax evasion if the loan was given at the same time as the election.
Re:Guide to Your Equity by rdl on Friday October 09, 2015 @06:20PM (#10363587)
I would love to buy those lawyers a beer for being such great hackers, even if it's denied. But they said private letter rulings had been given...
Re:Guide to Your Equity by blizkreeg on Friday October 09, 2015 @03:12PM (#10362600)
What is the reason for an expiration so short (30 days) after you leave (or are terminated involuntarily)?

It would be so highly unfair that after joining as an early employee and getting somewhere around 1-2%, if you leave after 4-5 yrs, that all your options expire 30 days after. I understand you can execute them but circumstances or policies may be such that it may not be favorable to do so.

I'm starting to think equity is essentially a sucker's game and you'd be stupid to play it and hope to win the lottery. A good salary and profit-sharing is just way better any day than the hope of overnight striking it rich one fine day.

Re:Guide to Your Equity by tptacek on Friday October 09, 2015 @03:16PM (#10362619)
Taxes are the reason.
Re:Guide to Your Equity by ChuckMcM on Friday October 09, 2015 @04:07PM (#10362941)
I agree with this, but it is worse than you make it out to be. If the options have increased in paper value since they were issued, which is to say the current strike price of newly issued options is higher than your strike price. You MUST pay US income tax on this "gain" because, according to the IRS, you could turn around and sell your stock at the current price and get cash for it.

The craziness is that you cannot actually do that. But you pay the tax anyway, and if they company goes away, or has an exit where the common stock gets no value, you can record the "loss" $3,000 a year until you have used it up.

So worst case is your out both the exercise money and the tax money. Wham wham!

Re:Guide to Your Equity by angersock on Friday October 09, 2015 @04:10PM (#10362967)
This is typically where the 83b elections come in, right?

Also, has anyone ever had trouble with the "speculatively execute one option buy a share to get access to the books for a sanity check" thing? That's normal practice, right?

Re:Guide to Your Equity by jdawe on Friday October 09, 2015 @05:02PM (#10363255)
In my experience common stock (i.e. what your options buy you) has no "information rights", so the company does not have to disclose financials to you. Additionally, even if you were offered the chance to buy preferred shares (what investors buy in a Series A, B, etc.), which ordinarily do carry information rights, there is usually a provision that prevents stockholders with paltry participation in those rounds (e.g. buying a single share) from enjoying information rights.

It's an extremely risky situation to be an employee stockholder. You are at the mercy of the founders, board, and investors. Usually founders also hold common stock, so that is somewhat reassuring, since they're in the same boat as employees from that perspective. However--and not saying this happens often--there is nothing preventing founders from being given the option, say in an acquisition or financing round, to cash out while employees are stuck without liquidity.

Re:Guide to Your Equity by hesdeadjim on Friday October 09, 2015 @04:15PM (#10362995)
I would absolutely do this if I find myself in a position where I am accepting ISOs again. Not doing so left me completely out of the loop in regards to company direction, how much the owners were paying themselves in dividends, or potential buyout options.
Re:Guide to Your Equity by gohrt on Friday October 09, 2015 @05:30PM (#10363386)
How do you lose the tax money? As you said: you can record the "loss" $3,000 a year until you have used it
Re:Guide to Your Equity by ChuckMcM on Friday October 09, 2015 @05:54PM (#10363487)
note: I'm not a tax professional and can't give tax advice. My experience with AMT is you can only get back the value of the stock that became worthless, not the money you paid in taxes when you exercised it.
Re:Guide to Your Equity by chaostheory on Friday October 09, 2015 @03:02PM (#10362539)
It could be worse.

There are startups that offer options that don't even give you the choice to exercise them even after they 'vest'. In this case, exercising can only occur after either a sale or IPO event AND the company has to give its blessing; and the company in question wonders why they have trouble with both hiring and retention.

I know it sucks but read all the legal terms related to your employment, ideally before you join.

Re:Guide to Your Equity by serge2k on Saturday October 10, 2015 @07:21PM (#10367386)
How can that be legal?
[deleted]
Re:Guide to Your Equity by dnr on Friday October 09, 2015 @04:41PM (#10363150)
Equidate does something kind of like this.
Re:Guide to Your Equity by yid on Friday October 09, 2015 @03:52PM (#10362844)
> if you want to capture any potential upside from your options, you're required to execute them, paying your own money for actual shares.

If you want to capture upside, then you must believe that there is upside, so then surely you can offset the cost of buying the options into your expected return?

Re:Guide to Your Equity by dnr on Friday October 09, 2015 @04:29PM (#10363077)
It's a question of liquidity: If you stand to make $1m but have to put up $200k right now, that only works if you have a liquid $200k right now, and are willing to risk it on a single company stock (as opposed to say a down-payment on a house).
Re:Guide to Your Equity by lojack on Friday October 09, 2015 @02:53PM (#10362489)
Wouldn't a third alternative be to sell the options to someone who could afford to purchase the shares? Or are they non-transferrable?
Re:Guide to Your Equity by tptacek on Friday October 09, 2015 @03:08PM (#10362575)
They generally aren't transferable, and the market for shares in these kinds of companies ("startups that aren't demonstrably on the trajectory of a Stripe or a Twilio") isn't liquid.
Re:Guide to Your Equity by gkop on Friday October 09, 2015 @05:24PM (#10363352)
Yes, and there are investors that specialize in these purchases, eg. http://www.esofund.com/ .
Re:Guide to Your Equity by JonFish85 on Friday October 09, 2015 @03:36PM (#10362750)
"What it means is that when you leave your job, if you want to capture any potential upside from your options, you're required to execute them, paying your own money for actual shares. Depending on the amount of equity you have, this may or may not be a meaningful amount of money, but it is in any case a painful decision to have to make."

Why is that a bad thing? If not exercised, those options disappear, and essentially everyone else is not diluted. If the options remain on the books, it affects everyone else.

Also, from a company perspective, that's a rough go, because earlier shares tend to be worth quite a bit more (whether because of lower strike prices or whether the early employee got a bigger percentage of the company), so you end up with cases of someone who put in a year early on and left holding a significant portion of the company when people who stick it out for longer get much less.

Of course, in any case, the company can always issue more shared to dilute out the early shareholders who left, while dishing out the new shares to everyone who is still employed, but then you're right back to square one.

Re:Guide to Your Equity by tptacek on Friday October 09, 2015 @03:52PM (#10362840)
There are a bunch of reasons why it's a bad thing, and most of them are compelling to me --- in principle, you worked for 3-4 years to earn equity, not the opportunity to buy equity --- but there's a big reason that I think is dispositive.

When a company sells, it negotiates with its buyer for a long time to come up with a price and terms for the deal. Former employee stockholders are iced out of that negotiation. The buyer and sellers have levers to pull that improve the outcome for themselves at the expense of former employees; for instance, the terms of the deal can include retention bonuses paid to employees, and in fact are sometimes dominated by those bonuses. Nobody needs to decide to be evil to make something like this happen! It's rational for the buyer to want to extend additional benefits to keep employees, and management is numbered among those employees.

I've had friends who paid significant amounts of money for their stock only to have it end up worth 0 in subsequent high-8-figure sales.