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Re:Avoiding the Adjective Fallacy by SilasX on Tuesday September 29, 2015 @05:20PM (#10299711)
I say the same thing about hashtable lookup. See this thread and the linked Reddit one[1].

To answer your immediate question, the "general computation model" assumes constant memory access time. It's hand-wavy, but at least it's consistent.

The bigger problem is that for hashtables, even under ideal, non-physical assumptions, you still can't logically derive O(1), because there are unavoidable, inherent computations you have to do as the hashtable gets arbitrarily large. Either you a) adapt the hash function to have a bigger output, or b) you allow values to stack up in each output slot. a) is log(n), b) is n.

I don't know anyone who could read the hashtable implementation, without knowing the "right" answer, who would reasonably say "oh, that's O(1), obviously".

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9807739

Re:Avoiding the Adjective Fallacy by TeMPOraL on Tuesday September 29, 2015 @06:41PM (#10300321)
Thanks very, very much for pointing me in the right direction! In the thread you linked, 'Cushman links[0] to a good StackExchange thread[1] that explains some related things that bothered me, and the whole thread also manages to answer my questions regarding arrays.

I wondered about hashtables too. I was actually teaching someone about them recently and had to re-read some CS stuff for it, and in the process I realized that the O(1) access for hashtables doesn't make any sense in the light of explanations I know.

So it turns out that the answer is complicated and in CS curriculum they just handwave you through. It sucks, to be honest, and it's the one thing that always annoyed me about formal education - far too often the teacher/professor stated something as a fact and provided a "proof" with so much confidence that I sort-of assumed it must be so, and realized only months or years later (and after a lot of confusion) that I learned an approximation - maybe a smart one, with good reasons backing it up, but still just an approximation, with important caveats that were never even mentions.

It sorts of make you wonder how much do you really understand about things, even in STEM.

[0] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9808452

[1] - http://cs.stackexchange.com/questions/1643/how-can-we-assume...

Re:Avoiding the Adjective Fallacy by vinceguidry on Wednesday September 30, 2015 @11:16AM (#10304576)
I think there's a subtlety you might be missing, correct me if I'm wrong.

I stated in my first reply that the growth rate is notated as a function of the size of the input. Big O is itself an approximation, you don't use it if you absolutely have to know all the other factors that don't vary on the size of the input. Such as if they vary on your memory architecture. In practice they tend not to matter, Big-O is sufficient for most purposes.

If you do need the detail, you remove the Big-O and write out your other factors so you can compare them to other algorithms at the right level of detail. There are also other notations you can use that convey other concepts, such as little-o, little-theta, big-theta. When you use a Landau symbol[1], as these are called, you're making an approximate statement by definition.

It's still perfectly fine to call array access O(1), even if your data is stored on Pluto, and it's Odysseus doing a space opera Odyssey for each retrieval, you're still only going there twice. Even if there are sub-algorithms that you are calling within the main one, you're still only calling them a constant number of times. If the first time you go to Pluto to get data it takes 6 months and the second time it takes 30 years, because of complications, it's still constant time.

If you were accessing a linked list stored on Pluto, then you're going to Pluto a number of times depending on how deep in the linked list your data is, assuming it's a dumb probe and it can't figure out where to go once it gets to Pluto and has to come back to earth to figure out what to do next. (go back to Pluto)

If it turns out retrieval time matters, or other factors besides the size of the input, then you can't approximate over them and Big-O ceases to be useful.

[1] http://mathworld.wolfram.com/LandauSymbols.html

Re:Avoiding the Adjective Fallacy by gizmo686 on Tuesday September 29, 2015 @11:59PM (#10301646)
If you assume the usual primitives (memory, arithmetic) are O(1), can't you still get an amoratized, expected performance of hashtables.

Given O(1) arithmatic, you should be able to use an O(1) hash function. At that point, you only have to deal with realocation as your tables grows without bound. You can solve that problem by using the 2n allocation method that gives us O(1) amortized appending to vectors.

Of course, you still need to make messy assumptions about randomness.

Re:Avoiding the Adjective Fallacy by SilasX on Wednesday September 30, 2015 @12:53AM (#10301872)
Any bounded size hash function has a bounded size output, which means a bounded number of buckets (number of possible outputs). That means that as the hash table gets arbitrarily large, you have to keep stacking new elements in each bucket. As the size goes to infinity, each bucket has a linear number of elements which have to be accessed in linear time.
Re:Avoiding the Adjective Fallacy by gizmo686 on Wednesday September 30, 2015 @01:04AM (#10301903)
Why do we need to use a bounded size hash function?
Re:Avoiding the Adjective Fallacy by SilasX on Wednesday September 30, 2015 @01:39AM (#10302001)
You don't: that's the other alternative. But if you allow the hash table to resize as you increase the hash function (that is, adapt the function to one that has a larger output), then that's still not constant with respect to the table size. Computing a larger output requires logarithmically more operations to compute the hash, assuming you use one with the same well-mixedness properties.

A hash function with 5 bits of output needs more operations than one with 2 bits of output.