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Re:Chariot Wins First Round of San Francisco's Private Trans... by hugh4 on Friday September 11, 2015 @05:40PM (#10206317)
It's interesting that Chariot can sell a bus ride for barely more than the (heavily subsidised) MUNI costs.

In my limited experience though, it seems that when I ride the MUNI I'm the only person actually paying a fare. Everybody else either has some kind of pass or is fare evading.

Re:Chariot Wins First Round of San Francisco's Private Trans... by xxpor on Friday September 11, 2015 @08:32PM (#10206828)
Completely different situation. Muni can't just stop a route if it's not profitable.
Re:Chariot Wins First Round of San Francisco's Private Trans... by istvan__ on Friday September 11, 2015 @09:34PM (#10206930)
It does not help that some of their maintenance staff is on 200K/y salary. Last time I have checked their wages it was pretty obvious that some of the staff is overpaid greatly. I also know some anecdotal stories about how employees exploiting the company.
Re:Chariot Wins First Round of San Francisco's Private Trans... by dogecoinbase on Friday September 11, 2015 @10:29PM (#10207020)
Wow, with wages like those they might actually be able to afford to live in the city they work in!
Re:Chariot Wins First Round of San Francisco's Private Trans... by hugh4 on Friday September 11, 2015 @11:54PM (#10207163)
It's neither realistic nor desirable that maintenance workers in San Francisco should live in San Francisco. Any more than the cleaners at the Hilton should live in the Hilton.

San Francisco is a small expensive area within a large metropolis, it's not that tricky to commute from somewhere a lot cheaper.

Re:Chariot Wins First Round of San Francisco's Private Trans... by SamReidHughes on Saturday September 12, 2015 @12:34AM (#10207227)
Um, sorry, but it certainly is desirable that people be able to find an affordable short commute.
Re:Chariot Wins First Round of San Francisco's Private Trans... by hugh4 on Saturday September 12, 2015 @01:43AM (#10207381)
Sure, it's desirable for them. In the same way that it's desirable to own a Ferrari.

However, more broadly speaking, it is neither necessary or desirable for everyone to own a Ferrari.

Given that a place in SF costs many times more than a Ferrari nowadays, I don't think it's an inapt analogy.

Re:Chariot Wins First Round of San Francisco's Private Trans... by SamReidHughes on Saturday September 12, 2015 @02:10AM (#10207439)
You don't think what's an inapt analogy? Wait, your Ferrari analogy that you made in the same post?

And it is indeed a great analogy because it shows how wrong you are -- having advanced cars that can rapidly accelerate to freeway speeds be affordable is a very desirable thing, and the fact that a Honda Civic of today is a vastly superior automobile to a Ferrari of the past (or better yet, a Volvo of the past) is a triumph of modernity. You think what, cars are too good?

Likewise, the fact that many people of today find that the best way to live involves throwing years of their lives away on a long commute is a human tragedy, and thinking that it's not desirable for this to be fixed is equally brain-damaged as thinking people shouldn't have good cars.

Re:Chariot Wins First Round of San Francisco's Private Trans... by MiddleEndian on Saturday September 12, 2015 @02:19AM (#10207447)
In what way is it not desirable for everyone to at least have the option of shorter commutes?
Re:Chariot Wins First Round of San Francisco's Private Trans... by istvan__ on Sunday September 13, 2015 @02:50AM (#10210571)
I know people live in this city and having a lower wage...
Re:Chariot Wins First Round of San Francisco's Private Trans... by argonaut on Friday September 11, 2015 @10:37PM (#10207036)
Nobody is entitled to live in the city they work in.
Re:Chariot Wins First Round of San Francisco's Private Trans... by jdavis703 on Friday September 11, 2015 @10:54PM (#10207066)
Rights are an arbitrary idea. Simply emphasizing that something is or isn't a right is tantamount to writing a fictional book. Even something as literally life altering as whether your own government (assuming you live in a democracy) can rightfully kill you or not is arbitrarily decided [0].

0: http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/sep/10/former-navy-c...

Re:Chariot Wins First Round of San Francisco's Private Trans... by argonaut on Sunday September 13, 2015 @01:46AM (#10210477)
Look. I work in the SOMA neighborhood of SF. That doesn't give me the right to live there (and I don't - it's too expensive, so I live in the south bay).
Re:Chariot Wins First Round of San Francisco's Private Trans... by venomsnake on Saturday September 12, 2015 @12:35AM (#10207231)
And as we saw with the recent refugee crisis no one is entitles to live at all. But if we strive to build a good society for whatever reason, one of the optimum solutions is to mix people of different backgrounds and paths of life together to enhance the social mobility.
Re:Chariot Wins First Round of San Francisco's Private Trans... by argonaut on Sunday September 13, 2015 @01:45AM (#10210476)
I didn't say people are not entitled to live.
Re:Chariot Wins First Round of San Francisco's Private Trans... by colordrops on Saturday September 12, 2015 @01:46AM (#10207397)
Depends on your philosophy, ideology, religion, and politics.
Re:Chariot Wins First Round of San Francisco's Private Trans... by organsnyder on Saturday September 12, 2015 @07:28AM (#10207821)
Why not? Is a living wage really a luxury?
Re:Chariot Wins First Round of San Francisco's Private Trans... by argonaut on Sunday September 13, 2015 @01:45AM (#10210473)
That's a false equivalence. I never said nobody is entitled to a living wage. If SF is too expensive, live in Oakland or Milbrae or Daly City.
Re:Chariot Wins First Round of San Francisco's Private Trans... by bruceb on Friday September 11, 2015 @10:36PM (#10207033)
When it was started it also was not wheelchair accessible. Not sure if this is still the case. Cherry picking profitable routes is not the same as providing access to all residents of the city.
Re:Chariot Wins First Round of San Francisco's Private Trans... by tdyen on Saturday September 12, 2015 @08:03AM (#10207874)
Reminds me of insurance companies cherry picking the healthy people. The profit motive conflicts with providing a universal service. While it can work, in Australia we have a public Health system, Medicare, that covers everybody.
Re:Chariot Wins First Round of San Francisco's Private Trans... by icebraining on Saturday September 12, 2015 @09:09AM (#10207992)
Chariot proudly offers accessible service upon one day’s advance notice. Please email us at [email protected] or call 844-692-4274 to reserve.

https://www.ridechariot.com/faq

Re:Chariot Wins First Round of San Francisco's Private Trans... by hugh4 on Saturday September 12, 2015 @12:13AM (#10207194)
So how much of the city's residents' taxes turn out to be just subsidising the tiny minority who need wheelchairs?
Re:Chariot Wins First Round of San Francisco's Private Trans... by jeromegv on Saturday September 12, 2015 @12:43AM (#10207247)
Does it matter? That's why public transit and government exists, to offer services to every single person.
Re:Chariot Wins First Round of San Francisco's Private Trans... by hugh4 on Saturday September 12, 2015 @01:58AM (#10207413)
That's one view of the role of government, I'm not so sure it's the right one. I at least think it should be up for debate.
Re:Chariot Wins First Round of San Francisco's Private Trans... by simoncion on Saturday September 12, 2015 @04:41AM (#10207618)
The thing about common carriers is that they're designed to be the carriers of last resort. They have special dispensation from a governing body to operate and -in return- they are obliged to offer their services to all who can afford them.

Common carriers are a long-standing practice that has clear benefits for society as a whole. What's more, back in the 1960s and 1970s we -as a nation- realized that there is value in helping the weak, infirm, disadvantaged, and those subject to discrimination participate as fully as they are able to in the public sphere.

If you want a somewhat less academic reason, remember that you can be afflicted by illness, infirmity, handicap, or -albeit on a longer timescale- discrimination at any time. When you're down, it's good to have services available that help prevent you from hitting rock bottom and allow you to help yourself get back on your feet quicker than you would on your own.

Re:Chariot Wins First Round of San Francisco's Private Trans... by rhizome on Saturday September 12, 2015 @01:04AM (#10207301)
Are you suggesting that that's a problem to be solved?
Re:Chariot Wins First Round of San Francisco's Private Trans... by andronebula on Saturday September 12, 2015 @08:57AM (#10207958)
> It's interesting that Chariot can sell a bus ride for barely more than the (heavily subsidised) MUNI costs.

It's because they serve only high-density areas with commuter-only routes that operate only in a very limited time frame (morning hours).

I think that such a model can not be called 'urban transit', a better term for it would be 'commuter private transit'.

And it has nothing to do with efficient massive urban transportation, see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10207669

Edit: grammar

Re:Chariot Wins First Round of San Francisco's Private Trans... by simoncion on Friday September 11, 2015 @08:35PM (#10206837)
> ...when I ride the MUNI I'm the only person actually paying a fare...

By this, do you mean "I'm the only one who seems to be paying in cash?". If you do, then the vast majority of folks who aren't fare-jumping are either:

* Using a Clipper Card [0] that has a "cash" balance

* Using a Clipper Card that has a monthly pass on it

* Using a Clipper Card that has a transfer from another bus on it

* Using a paper transfer from a previous actual-cash transaction with the farebox

[0] RFID tag which locally stores a balance, a couple of ticket types, and a shocking amount of your fare history. I presume that the data from the card readers on the buses are synced up with some central DB periodically.

Re:Chariot Wins First Round of San Francisco's Private Trans... by wooster on Friday September 11, 2015 @09:21PM (#10206910)
Anecdotally, at least, I see a lot of people riding Muni who are fare evading. I've also never seen any fare enforcement on a Muni bus, despite living here for ~6 years.
Re:Chariot Wins First Round of San Francisco's Private Trans... by simoncion on Friday September 11, 2015 @09:40PM (#10206939)
You must have never done anything like -say- use the 38 to connect to CalTrain shortly before or shortly after rush hour. :)

I made the 38->30/45->CalTrain or 47->CalTrain ride every single day for nearly a year. It seemed like once a month or once every other month, MTA fare inspectors would board the 38, 47, or -far more rarely- 30/45 I was riding and check everyone's proof of payment. On the 38 and the 47, it always took about five minutes and was a... fairly irritating delay on top of a really irritating commute.

Re:Chariot Wins First Round of San Francisco's Private Trans... by wooster on Friday September 11, 2015 @10:30PM (#10207021)
I mostly take the 7 (nee 71), 6, and 21.
Re:Chariot Wins First Round of San Francisco's Private Trans... by troygoode on Friday September 11, 2015 @10:30PM (#10207023)
I have a monthly pass and can't always be bothered to swipe my ClipperCard. It would look to you like I'm fare evading, but I'm not really. Perhaps others are doing the same.
Re:Chariot Wins First Round of San Francisco's Private Trans... by simoncion on Saturday September 12, 2015 @04:12AM (#10207586)
The Fare Inspectors will fine you if you haven't bothered to swipe your card, even if you have a monthly pass. The card stores a record of the last $WAY_TOO_MANY interactions with a Clipper Card reader, so it's trivial for them to check. Those guys have no sense of humor. :(

I'm a huge fan of Caltrain's policy: Monthly pass holders only have to interact with a reader twice at the beginning of the month [0]; once when you board and once when you disembark. For the rest of the month the conductors use their brains to remember the current month, and compare that against the end date on your monthly pass.

[0] And -realistically- you don't even have to do that. I went a couple of months without interacting with the Caltrain readers; the conductors never said a thing.

Re:Chariot Wins First Round of San Francisco's Private Trans... by thatswrong0 on Friday September 11, 2015 @09:44PM (#10206944)
I took the 27 to work occasionally, and because it stops right outside the police station, fare enforcement occurred like 30% of the time
Re:Chariot Wins First Round of San Francisco's Private Trans... by organsnyder on Saturday September 12, 2015 @07:32AM (#10207836)
Not sure how it works on the muni, but I had a similar thought when I saw lots of people getting on my town's BRT without paying a fare. Then I got a six-month pass (from my employer), and now it looks like I'm not paying a fare, either, since it only had to be validated once.
Re:Chariot Wins First Round of San Francisco's Private Trans... by cbhl on Friday September 11, 2015 @08:56PM (#10206874)
Yup - you can download 60 days of ride history from clippercard.com if you register your card. Tracks every tag (so entry only on Muni/AC Transit/VTA, entry/exit on BART and Caltrain).