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Re:America in flames by bilbo0s on Friday September 11, 2015 @12:12PM (#10204515)
To be fair... (and pragmatic)

Societies subsidize people who live in flood plains because of agriculture, infrastructure and logistics. Essentially, we get far more OUT of people living in MOST flood plains than we put in with respect to subsidies.

Consider MOST of the coastal cities. We, obviously, get WAY more OUT of Houston, Galveston and New Orleans, for example, than we put in. Those three ports are enormously important to us. If they disappeared tomorrow, you would discover why they were important the hard way.

Similarly for people living in midwestern flood plains. We will typically get far more out of them than we put in. Try feeding the world, with currently known agricultural technology, while not using any land in flood plains and you'll see what I mean. Even if you could somehow manage to do it... and I don't think you could.... but even if you could, you would cause enormous damage to the ecological tapestry of the continent. You would have to move MATERIAL amounts of water and soil at a minimum. It's best to subsidize the farmers to do what they do and make sure they're not disturbed in their endeavors. And, yes, many of those farmers and agribusinesses will be in flood plains.

Now I'm not saying ALL flood plains in the midwest or on the coast are critical infrastructure. New York, Houston and New Orleans are far more critical to our survival than... say... Miami, Myrtle Beach or Malibu. So obviously, I'm not saying that ALL port cities or ALL midwestern flood plains are critical. But there are definitely some places in this nation that merit sizable subsidies to keep people living and working there. It's the nature of the beast when you're talking about engineering an empire.

Re:America in flames by jvm on Friday September 11, 2015 @01:19PM (#10204903)
For any activities that really are that valuable, there is no need for a subsidy. The revenue from the activity in those cases exceeds the costs of dealing with the disaster.

The efficient thing to do is end the subsidy, and have all the less valuable activities whose benefits don't exceed the costs relocate or cease.

Re:America in flames by roymurdock on Friday September 11, 2015 @01:48PM (#10205115)
A scholarship is an educational subsidy. Should we issue a moratorium on scholarships? Should we discontinue subsidies for solar energy companies? How about the billions in R&D tax subsidies that we give to pharmaceutical/industrial/healthcare companies each year to develop new drugs, treatments, and machinery?

The market doesn't always know what is right. To be more specific: the market is short-sighted and greedy, and can self-destruct an economy if left unregulated. We need to subsidize activities that have large costs in the short term, but return more over the long run to society. Or else they won't happen.

Re:America in flames by Retric on Friday September 11, 2015 @01:57PM (#10205163)
Should we issue a moratorium on scholarships?

State funded 'generic' scholarships simply rise the cost of tuition. Good state schools are a much better use of funds as they drive down for profit education costs to be cost competitive. Schools can easily offer scholarships at minimal costs as a form of price discrimination, but public scholarships tend to simply result in administrative bloat.

Should we discontinue subsidies for solar energy companies?

Yes, instead we should tax CO2 production instead of subsidizing two industry's. see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Externality

How about the billions in R&D tax subsidies that we give to pharmaceutical/industrial/healthcare companies each year to develop new drugs, treatments, and machinery?

These should also be stopped, it's fine to fund public R&D but private R&D has terrible ROI. Drug companies spend more on advertising than R&D and really don't need help. For a solid example, the US could have a 10 year strategic food reserve for 1/10th the cost of current agro subsidies that directly result in massive health issues.

PS I agree that markets are often inefficient, but subsidies then to be horrible ways to correct them. Taxes tend to be much more efficient.

Re:America in flames by roymurdock on Friday September 11, 2015 @02:14PM (#10205274)
Taxes and subsidies are two sides of the same coin. They are often used in conjunction to achieve specific policy ends. If you are pro taxes, you are pro subsidies. Perhaps not on the specific, case-by-case basis, but overall you are arguing for free market distortion through the yin and yang of government policy.

I won't address your specific points as everyone has different opinions on policy, but no one has the data to rigorously defend their opinions.

I simply want to refute the notion that we can allow free markets to allocate all resources within the economy.

Re:America in flames by Retric on Friday September 11, 2015 @02:38PM (#10205410)
Ok we can side step the specific examples and I agree with your point. But, at the meta level I still think taxes are generally a better solution independent of policy.

Taxes are much more scalable than subsidies. AKA if A is better for society than B but B is cheaper to produce then taxing B can balance things fairly easily with consumers paying society for the external costs. But, subsidizing A is an unbound cost, adds administrative overhead, and promotes consumption of A and or B.

The downsides of Taxes is there often regressive, but for something like alcohol, pollution, or speeding societal costs are often independent from a persons net worth.

Re:America in flames by briandear on Friday September 11, 2015 @04:34PM (#10206029)
Ending federal student loans would do more to reduce higher Ed inflation than anything else. It's unpopular because the people smart enough to understand economics aren't the ones continuing to vote for expanded federal loans.
Re:America in flames by briandear on Friday September 11, 2015 @04:31PM (#10206015)
Taxing CO2! Then how would we breathe! Think of the effect on laborers that breathe more strenuously than the rest of us. They be impoverished! On a serious note, you're implying that CO2 has a deleterious effect. Any scientific studies to back that claim?
Re:America in flames by DanBC on Friday September 11, 2015 @04:39PM (#10206050)
> Please avoid introducing classic flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say about them.
Re:America in flames by Retric on Friday September 11, 2015 @09:00PM (#10206880)
Any scientific studies to back that claim?

Sure, let me count them... OMG "It's Over 9000!!!"

PS: Ask a dumb question... http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/It's_Over_9000!

Re:America in flames by jvm on Friday September 11, 2015 @04:14PM (#10205913)
If you want more people being educated, you should subsidize education.

If you want more R&D, you should subsidize R&D.

If you want more people living in burn zones, you should subsidize living in burn zones.

I think I join most Americans in saying that I'd rather more people be educated, I'd rather have more R&D, and I wouldn't rather more people live in burn zones.

Re:America in flames by muraiki on Friday September 11, 2015 @01:41PM (#10205068)
Efficiency must be balanced, though. Say that we end the subsidy on agricultural flood plains, which drives up the cost to farmers, who become less competitive vs imported food. They decide to close up shop and do something more profitable, since they can't complete with imports. The end result is an increase in efficiency but a loss of food security.

I'm sure other people have thought this through much better than what I just said. But it seems to me to be a reasonable argument.

Re:America in flames by jvm on Friday September 11, 2015 @04:11PM (#10205899)
If your goal is people growing more food relative to baseline, you should subsidize food (which we do, intensively).

If your goal is people living in flood zones, you should subsidize living in flood zones (e.g. by insuring it, which we also do).

We need an answer to the latter question in this case, not the former. And one is readily at hand: the political interest of those who live in flood zones. Maybe there's some other justification, but I'll confess I'm skeptical that this outcome is globally utility maximizing relative to alternative policies.

Re:America in flames by briandear on Friday September 11, 2015 @04:32PM (#10206021)
So a worker that works in Houston ought not have flood protection? Who pays when his house floods? "Industry?" Then prices rise for everyone instead of isolating the risk to those that choose to buy flood insurance.
Re:America in flames by WalterBright on Friday September 11, 2015 @02:08PM (#10205234)
Most floods are only a few inches deep. It isn't expensive to simply build the house up a foot or two, or bulldoze a mound and put the house on that. It'll greatly reduce the probability and severity of flood damage.
Re:America in flames by esmi on Friday September 11, 2015 @04:49PM (#10206096)
And, consequently, your flood insurance premium.

http://realestate.heraldtribune.com/2014/02/15/bubil-facing-...

Re:America in flames by WalterBright on Friday September 11, 2015 @05:26PM (#10206273)
Yup. I remember a few years back when the Mississippi flooded again, there was a news helicopter video shot of the inundated farmland.

What stood out, literally, was one farm house high and dry that had been built on a bulldozed mound.

Re:America in flames by photosinensis on Friday September 11, 2015 @01:37PM (#10205034)
Houston and New York are also designed with an expectation that those cities will flood. Most buildings in Houston, for example, forgo a basement and instead have a collecting vault underneath them that the rain drains into and from (and leaves more slowly and sustainably). There are fields set aside to ensure that there's land that can flood with minimal impact. County flood control districts will buy up property just to let it be undeveloped.

There are ways to mitigate the risks of living in a flood plain while still reaping the benefits.

Re:America in flames by gaadd33 on Friday September 11, 2015 @02:49PM (#10205471)
How are buildings in NYC designed with an expectation that they will flood? I haven't seen much of that, especially pre-Sandy. Post-Sandy there are some buildings with mounting brackets for walls/sandbags if there's another flood but that's not really designed in.