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Re:A Woman Who Spent Six Years Fighting a Traffic Stop by rayiner on Wednesday August 26, 2015 @01:59PM (#10124850)
> Larvadain, who is now 74, worries that young lawyers are less concerned with right and wrong than with chasing dollars. Although Patricia Parker’s lawsuit against Woodworth offered small hope of a big payday, Larvadain agreed to represent her. “Because I saw wrong had taken place. And I knew someone had to take a stand.”

I know a lot of young lawyers who'd love to take on a case like this one. But matching people who need help to lawyers who have the time and institutional resources to take on these projects pro bono isn't easy when you're talking about folks wronged in rural Louisiana.

Also, I think there's something of a hesitancy to for business law firms to add suing municipalities to their pro bono docket. Which is a shame--a few New Orleans firms building up a pipeline of pro bono suits against places like Woodsworth could do a lot of good.

EDIT: If you're interested in (potential) justice porn, it's worth following Fant v. City of Ferguson. The DOJ gave a lot of ammunition to plaintiffs' lawyers when it concluded that the city was systematically using fines and other police actions as revenue sources, particularly against poor black people. It's Woodsworth writ large. The complaint is here: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/02/08/us/ferguson-co.... The docket is available here on Justia: https://dockets.justia.com/docket/missouri/moedce/4:2015cv00.... With her opinion last month on reconsideration, the judge has effectively denied the city's motion to dismiss. Dispositive motions are due May of next year, so we'll likely see by then whether this is granted class status. If so, things will get interesting.

Re:A Woman Who Spent Six Years Fighting a Traffic Stop by will_brown on Wednesday August 26, 2015 @03:28PM (#10125426)
The title of the article could be confusing for non-lawyers, the woman was not fighting a traffic stop for 6 years (i.e. not a defendant in traffic court), she spent 6 years suing/proving that there was a violation of her Constitutional Rights (i.e. Plaintiff in a civil suit).

The traffic defense portion/aspect of the case is one of many reasons I have co-founded www.tickettitan.com . With proper representation at that level, this likely would never have escalated to 25 days in jail. That said rural Louisiana is not alone, Florida has many "speed trap cities" and in fact Waldo, Florida was so bad the Chief of police was suspended and then the entire police department was disbanded.

While Larvadain is referencing the Civil side, it is possible though difficult to obtain a pro bono lawyer, but I would have reasonable expectation most lawyers would accept this on contingency so there would be no out of pocket legal fees (hourly billable cases almost never make sense against the Gov. because of statutory caps on damages).

Re:A Woman Who Spent Six Years Fighting a Traffic Stop by makomk on Wednesday August 26, 2015 @04:43PM (#10125901)
She was also fighting several completely and utterly bogus citations from the traffic stop for those 6 years, unless I'm misreading this.
Re:A Woman Who Spent Six Years Fighting a Traffic Stop by will_brown on Wednesday August 26, 2015 @05:13PM (#10126063)
Yes she did fight the 4 tickets in traffic/mayor's court, but she lost. That did not take 6 years.

After losing she filed a civil lawsuit against the city and the officer, that is what took 6 years (including appeals) and that is where her monetary judgment came from. That was my point, it is confusing to non-lawyers, but generally they should be aware that defendant's do not win monetary judgments in traffic/criminal cases.

Re:A Woman Who Spent Six Years Fighting a Traffic Stop by jessaustin on Wednesday August 26, 2015 @06:18PM (#10126370)
...it's worth following Fant v. City of Ferguson.

We've had this sort of problem in Missouri for some time. An interesting case was Macks Creek. [0] That link claims that the new law "limited" traffic ticket revenue. It didn't, actually, it just said that any revenue over the limit wouldn't stay with the municipality, but would be transferred to the local public school district. That got rid of Macks Creek! I suspect that if that law were expanded from traffic tickets to encompass court fees as well, it would do quite a bit to discourage the municipal courts in Ferguson and neighboring towns from victimizing the public as they have. Sadly, I also suspect that racism will prevent this obvious fix from ever being implemented, even though poor whites throughout the state are victimized in similar ways.

Maybe I'm overstating my case. From a governance perspective, St. Louis is kind of a mess anyway. The city-county split in 1877 [1] set the tone for the constant division and re-division the area has seen ever since. Every time some suburban nitwit gets pissed off about something, instead of trying to fix it directly through existing channels, he starts circulating a petition to set up some new barely-incorporated village or district or whatever. Since these entities are tiny, no one pays attention to them, so corruption is rampant. The long practice of locating limited-access highways so as to destroy less-favored neighborhoods is also pretty terrible.

[0] http://articles.latimes.com/1998/aug/02/news/mn-9388

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Louis_County,_Missouri#Sep...

Re:A Woman Who Spent Six Years Fighting a Traffic Stop by jessaustin on Tuesday September 01, 2015 @07:07PM (#10156417)
So they did make some changes. [0][1] Yay Legislature and Gov. Nixon! Also various municipalities are doing the right thing on their own. [2][3]

Holy crap I have tears in my eye as I type this. I guess we can improve.

[0] http://www.missourinet.com/2015/07/09/missouri-governor-sign... [1] http://www.missourinet.com/2015/08/31/new-municipal-court-la... [2] http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/municipa... [3] http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/muni-cou...

Re:A Woman Who Spent Six Years Fighting a Traffic Stop by Paul-ish on Wednesday August 26, 2015 @02:45PM (#10125164)
Also, don't most people graduate law school up to their eyeballs in debt? They might not have much choice. At 74 Larvadain probably has more freedom in the cases he can take on.
Re:A Woman Who Spent Six Years Fighting a Traffic Stop by washadjeffmad on Wednesday August 26, 2015 @09:06PM (#10126947)
Also, depending on when he attended (but based on no later than when he established his practice in 1972), his entire tuition would have cost about a month's income for the average American household, inflation adjusted. Today it's about a year's.
Re:A Woman Who Spent Six Years Fighting a Traffic Stop by edw519 on Wednesday August 26, 2015 @02:17PM (#10124977)
First:

...young lawyers are less concerned with right and wrong than with chasing dollars.

then:

But matching people who need help to lawyers who have the time and institutional resources to take on these projects pro bono isn't easy...

Sounds like an excellent opportunity for a startup that is more concerned with right and wrong than with chasing dollars.

Any takers?

Re:A Woman Who Spent Six Years Fighting a Traffic Stop by fennecfoxen on Wednesday August 26, 2015 @09:26PM (#10126999)
You can tell you're in some kind of Silicon Valley echo chamber when people start calling every new ongoing businesslike concern a "startup", even if it departs radically from the model of "build something, attract investors to pay for building more, grow and eventually make lots of money".

We have other vocabulary terms like "business" and "firm" (e.g. a law firm) and "nonprofit" and "charity"; I suspect that one of them would probably describe what you have in mind better.

:)

Re:A Woman Who Spent Six Years Fighting a Traffic Stop by rhino369 on Wednesday August 26, 2015 @03:33PM (#10125453)
There are plenty of non-profits who do this. I work with one on my pro bono case. They partner with my firm and they've been helpful at giving me advice to help my client.

My buddy at the ACLU work with firms in the same type of arrangement.

The real problem is that a traffic stop isn't worth litigating.

Re:A Woman Who Spent Six Years Fighting a Traffic Stop by BHSPitMonkey on Wednesday August 26, 2015 @03:41PM (#10125516)
Judging by the article and the other comments, I don't think this case was about the traffic violation itself.
Re:A Woman Who Spent Six Years Fighting a Traffic Stop by dswiese on Wednesday August 26, 2015 @02:24PM (#10125018)
doubtful. it can't be delivered in under an hour by a contractor.
Re:A Woman Who Spent Six Years Fighting a Traffic Stop by SonicSoul on Wednesday August 26, 2015 @02:37PM (#10125113)
Isn't this what EFF does ?
Re:A Woman Who Spent Six Years Fighting a Traffic Stop by pc86 on Wednesday August 26, 2015 @03:07PM (#10125306)
Do they do it for traffic stops in rural Louisiana?
Re:A Woman Who Spent Six Years Fighting a Traffic Stop by briandear on Wednesday August 26, 2015 @03:20PM (#10125380)
Right and wrong is great -- but so is paying the bills. "Startups" the don't care about money are a fools game.
Re:A Woman Who Spent Six Years Fighting a Traffic Stop by sandworm101 on Wednesday August 26, 2015 @03:28PM (#10125423)
Right and wrong is also a subject of opinion. Even the story in the OP is based on some real lawbreaking. We might all agree that these traffic stops go way to far, but they often do start with legitimate infractions (no insurance etc). Perhaps the better answer is to change these petty laws, or amalgamate them into something less difficult to obey. Frankly, the american approach of license+registration+insurance on three separate plans with three separate expiry dates is a minefield.
Re:A Woman Who Spent Six Years Fighting a Traffic Stop by mikeash on Wednesday August 26, 2015 @03:44PM (#10125529)
The story in the OP did start with a legitimate infraction, but on the part of the police officer, not the driver. The law is pretty clear that you can't just pull someone over for no reason and require them to produce documents. Right and wrong is pretty clear in this particular case, and it's insane that it took so long to get justice.

There's a useful debate to be had over the usefulness of the many traffic regulations we're required to follow, but it's hard to have that debate here, when the entire event started with an illegal stop by an officer, and none of the rest would have happened without that.

Re:A Woman Who Spent Six Years Fighting a Traffic Stop by chetanahuja on Wednesday August 26, 2015 @03:41PM (#10125517)
"We might all agree that these traffic stops go way to far, but they often do start with legitimate infractions (no insurance etc)."

Umm... Did you read the story? The original stop was illegal to begin with (that is, the cop was doing an illegal activity). Then the driver in question had all her papers in order (which she proved to the Mayor/Judge with documentation). But the fine was not just not dropped... they arrested her for not paying that unjust fine and threw her in prison for 25 days.

Re:A Woman Who Spent Six Years Fighting a Traffic Stop by sandworm101 on Wednesday August 26, 2015 @04:24PM (#10125766)
Lawyers can argue about the stop, but it happened. They happen all the time. The cop might not have had probable cause, he stopped the car for no better reason than he wanted to, but that isn't the cause of all the difficulties. It hit the fan when the cop starts running the paperwork.

"When Godwin ran Parker’s license, the computer said it was suspended. He also said the registration card was expired."

That's the root problem, not the stop. There was, from the cops perspective, a real infraction here. So rather than debate the constitutionality of the stop, we should address the overly-complex system that resulted in this perceived infraction. If the computer was wrong, fix the machine. If the paperwork was actually expired, why are they still using paper? If we don't want cops issuing onerous citations for these things, change the laws so they cannot. We should not patch over bad laws by simply not enforcing them.

In many jurisdictions (ie mine) the entire stop would have been perfectly legal. We display out registration/insurance details on a license plates. So cops are perfectly justified in pulling cars over with expired registration/insurance/plates. They need not speculate. They cannot claim suspicion or the need to check paperwork when the plate shows validity. And and driver stepping into a car can see on the plate whether everything is correct. Every cop should be able to lookup a plate and check all the paperwork prior to pulling anyone over.

Re:A Woman Who Spent Six Years Fighting a Traffic Stop by chetanahuja on Wednesday August 26, 2015 @09:43PM (#10127056)
"Lawyers can argue about the stop, but it happened"

Lawyers have argued about the stop and the verdict has been reached and upheld on appeal. The rest of your arguments are just as ignorant of the actual case.

"There was, from the cops perspective, a real infraction here"

No there wasn't. The cop himself said so.

"officer hit his lights and pulled her over. The officer, David Godwin, later testified that he stopped the pickup “just to check and see” and to “find out what was going on.”

Once again, please read the OP and for the love of god, stop spewing ignorant opinion.

Re:A Woman Who Spent Six Years Fighting a Traffic Stop by anu_gupta on Wednesday August 26, 2015 @04:37PM (#10125861)
> That's the root problem, not the stop.

No, the root problem is that a police officer decided to unconstitutionally stop a car with 3 African Americans, because they had committed the crime of being African American.

Re:A Woman Who Spent Six Years Fighting a Traffic Stop by sophacles on Wednesday August 26, 2015 @05:01PM (#10125997)
This discussion of the root problem is useful, but let's not let it become a red herring or distraction from the rest of the problem: I mean even if the stop happened and was legal, there is a real and valid problem in the way the trial occured, once she presented the proof of valid license and insurance, that should have been the end of it - including a reimbursement for expenses incurred.

I am curious about racial motivations and racial disparity though. It might be reasonable to think that the cop didn't pull over the people due to their race, as it was dark and I don't know if there was any way he could have seen that well. I wonder though if there is a way to find out a stops vs "run the license" ratio and if it indicates any racial biases. The run the license part should be gleanable from logs, but the number of stops part may be difficult - I don't know how those are recorded and how accurately they are recorded.

Re:A Woman Who Spent Six Years Fighting a Traffic Stop by anu_gupta on Wednesday August 26, 2015 @06:11PM (#10126336)
From the article (and the actual judgement the article links to)

> Absent a traffic violation, so far as can be gleaned from this record, the only visible attribute of Parker and her passengers that might have distinguished them from other motorists turning on Methodist Parkway was they are all African Americans. There simply is no other distinguishing thing that can be surmised.

Re:A Woman Who Spent Six Years Fighting a Traffic Stop by jacalata on Wednesday August 26, 2015 @04:38PM (#10125871)
What good would it do to change the law around the cop issuing the citation when you've already demonstrated that you don't care if the cop follows the law in the first place by allowing illegal stops?
Re:A Woman Who Spent Six Years Fighting a Traffic Stop by oldmanjay on Wednesday August 26, 2015 @02:54PM (#10125225)
>...young lawyers are less concerned with right and wrong than with chasing dollars...

Based, of course, on the corrupt system created and sustained and protected by the old lawyers who can't see far enough past their own biases to realize that they are the same horrible people.

Re:A Woman Who Spent Six Years Fighting a Traffic Stop by rayiner on Wednesday August 26, 2015 @03:04PM (#10125288)
Ultimately it's the citizens that are to blame. It's elected police chiefs or sheriffs, elected mayors, and (usually) elected judges that create and perpetuate these systems.

I mean, look at Woodsworth. There's no lobbyists, SuperPAC funding, Koch Brothers money. There's no excuses. The people could vote every wrongdoer in this story out of office tomorrow. They choose not to.

Re:A Woman Who Spent Six Years Fighting a Traffic Stop by fnordfnordfnord on Wednesday August 26, 2015 @04:13PM (#10125691)
They don't treat Woodsworth voters like that.
Re:A Woman Who Spent Six Years Fighting a Traffic Stop by tsotha on Wednesday August 26, 2015 @08:58PM (#10126921)
This is the key to running cities based on ticket revenue. Residents would would never tolerate it if they were plundered like this. Heck, most of them probably don't realize what's going on until they've been there awhile.
Re:A Woman Who Spent Six Years Fighting a Traffic Stop by gohrt on Wednesday August 26, 2015 @07:58PM (#10126710)
Democracy is tyranny of the majority.