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Re:The time is right to re-examine the L.A. freeway by revelation on Friday August 21, 2015 @05:23PM (#10100344)
People in the US keep bringing this up. Oh, but look, the US is such a big place! It will never work here. Oh, but look, everybody is living in the suburbs and there is no shopping in 20 miles here!

You know, in 1960, Amsterdam was the same car-centric hellhole. They didn't always have that transport modal share. They worked on it.

Re:The time is right to re-examine the L.A. freeway by Frondo on Friday August 21, 2015 @06:19PM (#10100603)
Yeah, I don't get this either. It's a weird kind of American exceptionalism, except in reverse: we can't have good broadband on a national level like in Finland, because America! a strong social welfare system won't work here like it does in Scandinavia, because America! People won't adapt to biking, because America!

Yeah, we're bigger and more diverse, but so what? It's like people give up on solving problems, and use that as an excuse, without even trying.

When I think of the conservatism that's really hurting us, it's not Fox News or any of those right-wing nitwits, it's otherwise-smart people putting out this attitude of "we can't do anything, because America!"

Re:The time is right to re-examine the L.A. freeway by rayiner on Friday August 21, 2015 @06:29PM (#10100648)
> When I think of the conservatism that's really hurting us, it's not Fox News or any of those right-wing nitwits, it's otherwise-smart people putting out this attitude of "we can't do anything, because America!"

Ironically, it was the wide-eyed liberal optimists of their day that inflicted suburbia on us. Disrupting how we built cities to that point was supposed to make everything better.

Re:The time is right to re-examine the L.A. freeway by pjlegato on Friday August 21, 2015 @07:40PM (#10100901)
This is true. The zoning laws that led to suburbia were introduced in the 1910s and 1920s by well-meaning "progressives" who decried the ability of the rich to cloister themselves in country estates while the poor were forced to live among commerce in the city.

They won, and the result was the legislation of vast suburban "residential" zones where commercial business was prohibited, with minimum lot sizes and setbacks and minimum space between houses.

Re:The time is right to re-examine the L.A. freeway by Frondo on Friday August 21, 2015 @08:43PM (#10101065)
Yeah, that's too bad. The wide-eyed liberal optimists got it wrong a hundred years ago. Shame that now the stodgy never-change-anything conservatives are clinging to that wrong idea from a hundred years ago, and once again the wide-eyed liberal optimists are trying to make it right!
Re:The time is right to re-examine the L.A. freeway by rayiner on Friday August 21, 2015 @09:02PM (#10101105)
It was more like 50 years ago ('60s).
Re:The time is right to re-examine the L.A. freeway by dragonwriter on Friday August 21, 2015 @06:24PM (#10100624)
> When I think of the conservatism that's really hurting us, it's not Fox News or any of those right-wing nitwits, it's otherwise-smart people putting out this attitude of "we can't do anything, because America!"

I've quite often heard the "because America!" lines you refer to -- in response to the specific issues you mention -- used by Fox News and similar right-wing outlets. So, I'm not sure the two things you contrast here as sources of the issue are actually mutually exclusive alternatives, rather than closely related facets of the same thing.

Re:The time is right to re-examine the L.A. freeway by pjlegato on Friday August 21, 2015 @07:42PM (#10100909)
This is simply the leftist version of the American exceptionalism thesis.

Whereas conservatives focus on supposed positive exceptional attributes of America, multiple generations of leftists have now promoted and developed the inverse: the idea that America is forever fundamentally broken (due to the power of big corporations, evil conservatives, Fox News, etc.), and thus certain problems that others can solve are deemed inherently unsolveable in America.

Re:The time is right to re-examine the L.A. freeway by dragonwriter on Friday August 21, 2015 @07:46PM (#10100920)
> This is simply the leftist version of the American exceptionalism thesis.

Strange description, because pretty much every example I've seen of this has been someone on the left saying "Of course we can do better in this area, see how it works in <other country>!" followed by someone on the right saying "No, we that won't work here, because America!".

(Sometimes pointing to something that might arguably be a legitimate difference -- I'm not saying that this pattern is universally wrong, just that there doesn't seem to be anything leftist about it, if anything, it tends to be the opposite.)

The closest I've seen from the Left to this is the defeatist version "we could in theory do that here and it would work, but it isn't politically viable because America!." But, OTOH, I've seen that form from the Right, too, just on different issues.

Re:The time is right to re-examine the L.A. freeway by Frondo on Friday August 21, 2015 @08:41PM (#10101062)
Yeah, like dragonwriter says, I never see this on the left. The left is almost always coming out and saying "This is what's wrong with America, and we should fix it."

I can't remember ever seeing any left-leaning or progressive type throw up their hands and say, "well, that just won't work here."

I will acknowledge that political conservatives or right-leaning types often do suggest that problems are solvable, but these days I only ever see right-leaning types suggesting that "the free market" will solve a problem (and, conversely, if it's one of the large class of things that the free market can't solve, then it is either not a problem or it is not solvable).

Still, the whole "it can't be done here" is, if not right-leaning, at least a conservative attitude in the sense of not trying to change anything. It just adds in an extra layer of (often irrelevant or nonsensical) defeatism, like the problem is unsolvable, and not just difficult.

It's weird, because we could put people on the moon, but a city can't adapt to a more bike-friendly way of life?

Re:The time is right to re-examine the L.A. freeway by maxxxxx on Saturday August 22, 2015 @12:17PM (#10102867)
You should add that conservatives focus on the government messing up everything so nothing can be solved either. See the healthcare debate,
Re:The time is right to re-examine the L.A. freeway by Noted on Friday August 21, 2015 @05:45PM (#10100440)
You realize that LA (the city proper, not metro area) is over 5x the size of Amsterdam with over 4x the population. I think that's part of what he meant by they're not really comparable. I definitely agree that, yes, it needs to be worked on. It just might be a longer process and some of the tricks that work in other locales aren't directly applicable.
Re:The time is right to re-examine the L.A. freeway by revelation on Friday August 21, 2015 @05:53PM (#10100474)
I don't get it. What does that even mean? It's 5x as big and has 5x the population? Do you realize what you are saying here?

Yeah, it's always a longer process. You still gotta start at some point. 30 years behind Amsterdam and the clock is still clicking on for the process to actually start. Tomorrow it will be 30 years and 1 day without action.

(I'll just say it to be very clear here: when I say Amsterdam, really it's all of the Netherlands, to slightly varying degree.)

Re:The time is right to re-examine the L.A. freeway by rm_-rf_slash on Friday August 21, 2015 @07:48PM (#10100927)
LA is a lot of communities crammed into one huge community. You can do almost anything there but the distinct sections are really far apart. Especially when it comes to jobs. Mom know the subject is LA's transportation system, but I can't help but see it as a problem of densification.
Re:The time is right to re-examine the L.A. freeway by pinaceae on Saturday August 22, 2015 @11:54AM (#10102800)
he is saying that it has 4x population on 5x the area.

the latter being the kicker, most euros do not comprehend the distances that hit you in the US. plus, cali is a desert. try cycling in 40C heat, for 10miles (15km). people use cars because of the AC.

distances also hit as your work rarely is located where you live - US has planned cities with strict zones. you live here but you work there. US commute is very, very different than anything in Europe.

Re:The time is right to re-examine the L.A. freeway by jonknee on Friday August 21, 2015 @05:55PM (#10100482)
Amsterdam has ~1.5m people in the metro area while LA has ~18m (more than The Netherlands in total!). They're just not comparable in terms of infrastructure. LA is also growing very rapidly (it's added 2 Amsterdam's worth of people since just 1990!) which makes it difficult to properly plan infrastructure.
Re:The time is right to re-examine the L.A. freeway by yxhuvud on Saturday August 22, 2015 @10:55AM (#10102644)
They are not directly comparable, but not for the reason you state. Thing is, mass transit scale a heck of a lot better than highways do when population rises.
Re:The time is right to re-examine the L.A. freeway by revelation on Friday August 21, 2015 @05:58PM (#10100496)
You're right they are not comparable in infrastructure, there are no dedicated bike lanes forming a connected network, but there are surely lots of dead pedestrians and car carnage.