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Re:Two AI Pioneers. Two Bizarre Suicides. What Really Happened? by rkts on Saturday January 19, 2008 @11:55AM (#100910)
This story and the mention of MIT's "high suicide rate" remind me of something I've wondered about. Depression and suicide seem to be common among very smart people. Does anyone know why?
Re:Two AI Pioneers. Two Bizarre Suicides. What Really Happened? by tokipin on Saturday January 19, 2008 @03:20PM (#100998)
i place my bets on existential depression

from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_giftedness#Depress... "A number of people have noted a higher incidence of existential depression [in the gifted], which is depression due to highly abstract concerns such as the finality of death, the ultimate unimportance of individual people, and the meaning (or lack thereof) of life."

they recognize the irrelevance of everything. it's not uncommon for all types of people to have these sorts of thoughts, but the very abstractive abilities of the gifted mean these are more than just thoughts to them. these issues are as clear, concrete, and tangible as a brick wall is to mere normal humans

compounding things is the fact that these gifted people hold nature in the highest regard, and see it as the only arbiter of truth. they can't escape the irrelevance of everything, because that's just how nature is

it's a painful QED

Re:Two AI Pioneers. Two Bizarre Suicides. What Really Happened? by akkartik on Saturday January 19, 2008 @04:10PM (#101014)
Here's my shield against existential depression, arrived at after much pain (with major influences):

Notice that you don't bother wondering what it all means when you're having fun. Meaning comes from having fun. (http://www.amazon.com/Just-Fun-Story-Accidental-Revolutionar...)

Having fun usually involves work. (http://scrapbook.akkartik.name/post/24169645 http://scrapbook.akkartik.name/post/21256293)

How do you figure out what you love? Do something, see where it leads. Iterate between the doing and the loving as fast as you can. Sketch. (http://scrapbook.akkartik.name/post/24170012 http://scrapbook.akkartik.name/post/24169153 http://scrapbook.akkartik.name/post/1451852)

What you love is a moving target, it changes with you. If you neglect it you will lose it.

Re:Two AI Pioneers. Two Bizarre Suicides. What Really Happened? by michaelneale on Sunday January 20, 2008 @08:00AM (#101209)
I prefer the "dolphin" approach (from Hitchikers guide...). Where the dolphins think they are the most intelligent because all they do is muck about in the water having a good time.
Re:Two AI Pioneers. Two Bizarre Suicides. What Really Happened? by chandler on Sunday January 20, 2008 @02:12AM (#101168)
> they recognize the irrelevance of everything...they can't escape the irrelevance of everything, because that's just how nature is...QED

In science, when a model of the world ceases to be useful, the smart thing to do is to find a better model.

Even if there is an objective nature, animals can only hope to experience it subjectively (our brains are remarkable at filtering physical input received from the five senses, and our world view is shaped by a lifetime of filtering and selecting input).

Consequently, the gifted "everything is irrelevant" individual will be depressed, not because everything is actually irrelevant, but because the individual believes this to be the case (moreover, whether or not "everything is actually irrelevant" is actually irrelevant is the follow up joke).

It's a shame that many gifted depressives are apparently so emotionally attached to this ugly model.

Re:Two AI Pioneers. Two Bizarre Suicides. What Really Happened? by pchivers on Saturday January 19, 2008 @04:32PM (#101021)
Here a link to a previous discussion of existential depression on Hacker News:

Existential Depression in Gifted Individuals

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=78594

Re:Two AI Pioneers. Two Bizarre Suicides. What Really Happened? by randallsquared on Saturday January 19, 2008 @12:26PM (#100918)
I don't know. However, here's some hypotheses, some combination of which may be most of the reason:

Even if depression and suicide attempts aren't more common, very smart people may be enough more competent that they succeed more often. Most attempts at suicide don't actually result in death.

It could be that the easy wins in building a smarter brain happen to lead to a genetic predisposition to depression.

It could be that smarter people are more easily able to internalize that there's no ultimate point to life, and less able to just have faith.

Re:Two AI Pioneers. Two Bizarre Suicides. What Really Happened? by eru on Monday January 21, 2008 @04:01AM (#101497)
So smarter people might just be better at suicide?
Re:Two AI Pioneers. Two Bizarre Suicides. What Really Happened? by hello_moto on Saturday January 19, 2008 @12:38PM (#100920)
You can see from their traits:

1) Super smart

2) Actively thinking every single day

3) Thinking how to solve hard problems

4) Too involved/focused with the area field they are in

When people called that RMS is nuts, sometime I wonder, is he really that nuts? He's fighting for a better world of software. But at the same time, he doesn't fight over super-hard-algorithm. RMS is still in touch with humans albeit he's fighting/arguing with them CEOs/PRs.

The rate of suicide is high among Grad/PhD students because they have to "think outside the box" every single day. They have to find a "breakthrough".

Sometime, "thinking outside the box" means to break all the logics and common sense around you. When you start bending logics, there's a good chance the situation will change the way you perceive things. You began to accept your "new logic" (as in this case, human is just like a program, disease equals to bug).

Re:Two AI Pioneers. Two Bizarre Suicides. What Really Happened? by angryprofessor on Saturday January 19, 2008 @11:13PM (#101130)
>The rate of suicide is high among Grad/PhD students because they have to "think outside the box" every single day. They have to find a "breakthrough".

That's really not true, though many grad students (especially in physics) think it is. You need to make a useful research contribution, but it can be evolutionary.

My thesis problem is a very popular one: new Ph.D.'s are awarded monthly for incremental advances in this area. Only about 2 theses on the topic (in the past 10 years) have actually been breakthroughs. The rest are just marginal improvements, i.e. 1'st order -> 2'nd order -> 4'th order, spherical coordinates -> arbitrary spherical-like coordinates -> arbitrary coordinates, etc.

Re:Two AI Pioneers. Two Bizarre Suicides. What Really Happened? by palish on Saturday January 19, 2008 @12:26PM (#100917)
Because when you're smart enough to realize you're not quite smart enough, it's crushingly depressing.
Re:Two AI Pioneers. Two Bizarre Suicides. What Really Happened? by mojuba on Saturday January 19, 2008 @04:57PM (#101030)
Why should that be depressing? It seems to me quite normal that I'm not smart enough for many hard problems - why should that drive me crazy?
Re:Two AI Pioneers. Two Bizarre Suicides. What Really Happened? by kirubakaran on Saturday January 19, 2008 @11:42PM (#101141)
You were smart enough to realize that you need not be depressed when you are smart enough to realize that you are not quite smart enough.
Re:Two AI Pioneers. Two Bizarre Suicides. What Really Happened? by as on Saturday January 19, 2008 @04:07PM (#101012)
Material for anyone who wonders about this:

Jonathan Haight's research on conservative and liberal values:

http://www.newyorker.com/online/video/conference/2007/haidt

Kazimierz Dabrowski's theory of over-excitability and positive disintegration.

http://www.stephanietolan.com/dabrowskis.htm

http://members.shaw.ca/positivedisintegration/

Durkhiem's ideas about anomie:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anomie

Re:Two AI Pioneers. Two Bizarre Suicides. What Really Happened? by corentin on Saturday January 19, 2008 @01:11PM (#100935)
The more intelligent you are, the more alien you are to a society designed and run by average (if not dumb) people.
Re:Two AI Pioneers. Two Bizarre Suicides. What Really Happened? by comatose_kid on Saturday January 19, 2008 @05:29PM (#101039)
Society is designed? Interesting... I'd lean more towards emergent behavior.
Re:Two AI Pioneers. Two Bizarre Suicides. What Really Happened? by mixmax on Saturday January 19, 2008 @05:50PM (#101043)
I agree - but emergence that will favor the Joe sixpack due to his abundance.

In short: Lowest common denominator.

Re:Two AI Pioneers. Two Bizarre Suicides. What Really Happened? by yters on Saturday January 19, 2008 @03:13PM (#100995)
Another question, has it always been this way? I remember reading somewhere that our levels of depression and suicide are a historical anomaly. What is different between now and then?
Re:Two AI Pioneers. Two Bizarre Suicides. What Really Happened? by Hexstream on Saturday January 19, 2008 @04:08PM (#101013)
Maybe previously, people were too occupied with subsistance to wonder if they should kill themselves.
Re:Two AI Pioneers. Two Bizarre Suicides. What Really Happened? by yters on Sunday January 20, 2008 @02:56PM (#101310)
The majority of people today are mostly concerned with subsistence too.
Re:Two AI Pioneers. Two Bizarre Suicides. What Really Happened? by Hexstream on Monday January 21, 2008 @03:32PM (#101788)
And that's why most people still don't commit suicide? ;P
Re:Two AI Pioneers. Two Bizarre Suicides. What Really Happened? by mojuba on Saturday January 19, 2008 @04:01PM (#101009)
We may be confusing cause and effect here. It's their insanity (actually inferiority complexes) that makes them take over infinitely hard problems when one gets all or nothing - more often the latter.

This also reminds of Dangerous Knowledge (can't find it on Google Video anymore)

Re:Two AI Pioneers. Two Bizarre Suicides. What Really Happened? by pchivers on Saturday January 19, 2008 @04:26PM (#101018)
It seems that Dangerous Knowledge was taken down from Google Video. Here is a link to the BBC page:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/documentaries/features/dangerou...

"In this one-off documentary, David Malone looks at four brilliant mathematicians - Georg Cantor, Ludwig Boltzmann, Kurt Godel and Alan Turing - whose genius has profoundly affected us, but which tragically drove them insane and eventually led to them all committing suicide."

Re:Two AI Pioneers. Two Bizarre Suicides. What Really Happened? by mojuba on Saturday January 19, 2008 @04:55PM (#101029)
"which tragically drove them insane" - here's where the error lies. The film mentions that Cantor heard "voices" even before he got interested in mathematics, so it's not his genius that drove him insane, but rather the other way around. Cantor, Boltzman, Godel and Turing were among the few successful insane scientists.
Re:Two AI Pioneers. Two Bizarre Suicides. What Really Happened? by DanielBMarkham on Saturday January 19, 2008 @02:23PM (#100974)
Who cares? It all seems so pointless
Re:Two AI Pioneers. Two Bizarre Suicides. What Really Happened? by yters on Saturday January 19, 2008 @03:14PM (#100996)
It's a problem if the situation is escalating...
Re:Two AI Pioneers. Two Bizarre Suicides. What Really Happened? by marcus on Sunday January 20, 2008 @06:40AM (#101196)
I think you missed Daniel's irony
Re:Two AI Pioneers. Two Bizarre Suicides. What Really Happened? by yters on Sunday January 20, 2008 @02:55PM (#101309)
Yes, yes I did.
Re:Two AI Pioneers. Two Bizarre Suicides. What Really Happened? by yason on Sunday January 20, 2008 @03:23PM (#101318)
Excess bias on the analytical, thinking, and "doing" sides of a human life purges out the practical, hands-on, "not-doing" side that's deeply rooted to nature and connects you to reality. You need to spend time in the nature doing nothing to realize where you come from and that you're not in hurry to anywhere and to balance, you also need to exercise your brain and thinking to break the limits of what you can, thus redefining yourself as you go by life.
Re:Two AI Pioneers. Two Bizarre Suicides. What Really Happened? by nickb on Saturday January 19, 2008 @08:50PM (#101096)
> Does anyone know why?

Most of the gifted individuals suffer from existential depression. More here: http://web.archive.org/web/20061020235245/http://www.giftedb...

Re:Two AI Pioneers. Two Bizarre Suicides. What Really Happened? by yters on Saturday January 19, 2008 @02:19PM (#100970)
As the above comments show, smart people tend to take things more seriously. Not that that's a bad thing, but I think it explains the extremes in the views of smart people.

Of course, I've just moved the question up a level here...

Re:Two AI Pioneers. Two Bizarre Suicides. What Really Happened? by marcus on Sunday January 20, 2008 @06:42AM (#101197)
Because ignorance is bliss.
Re:Two AI Pioneers. Two Bizarre Suicides. What Really Happened? by curi on Saturday January 19, 2008 @12:38PM (#100921)
Maybe it's because smarter people tend to be less average. Less conventional. Less traditional.

Deviating from tradition is the only way to get amazing new gains. But the majority of deviations are mistakes and make things go wrong.

And when untraditional things go wrong, there is less support available to help deal with it.