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Re:TTIP Secret trade deal can only be read in secure 'readin... by tptacek on Monday August 17, 2015 @04:48PM (#10076007)
The treaties themselves are public, and are voted on.

The interim negotiating documents are closely-guarded secrets, because trade negotiations will require give-to-get concessions from some industries, who would lobby aggressively to avoid being singled out.

Re:TTIP Secret trade deal can only be read in secure 'readin... by FellowMarketer on Monday August 17, 2015 @05:02PM (#10076093)
On the other hand, negotiators are pressured to come to some agreement, and a "compromise" halfway between the global consensus and one lone holdout isn't a true compromise -- it's extortion by a global power.

If the secrecy of the documents is supposed to protect that kind of extortion by major powers -- for instance, on the part of US negotiators insisting that the rest of the world honor US IP standards -- then they should be publicly named and shamed, not hidden by "the process", under the guise that their all-or-nothing extortion is a reasonable practice.

I think it's very likely that the secrecy is meant to hide bad actions on the part of some negotiators representing powerful interests, and not for the true benefit of the constituents the negotiators are (theoretically) representing. I think the entirety of the fast tracking process in the US (and other nations), the secrecy around the negotiations, etc is at the behest of and for the benefit of major powers extorting other people, and shouldn't be respected, at all.

Do you have some reasons to suppose that it's otherwise, given the nature of the drafts we've seen and leaked comments from negotiators suggesting that the US negotiating team is attempting to extort the world in to accepting the (rather ridiculous) US IP position?

Re:TTIP Secret trade deal can only be read in secure 'readin... by tptacek on Monday August 17, 2015 @05:48PM (#10076370)
I think you're referring to the TPP here, not TTIP, which is the agreement being discussed in the article.

That TPP is an attempt to coerce Asian countries into adopting US-friendly IP laws is surely one of the most poorly-kept secrets in geopolitics. It's the stated purpose of the treaty. It's why the US is spending the time and effort on it.

So I'm not clear on what "naming and shaming" you're referring to, or why it hasn't (a) already been accomplished or (b) will easily be accomplished once the treaty goes into public review.

Re:TTIP Secret trade deal can only be read in secure 'readin... by hadeharian on Tuesday August 18, 2015 @01:55PM (#10080883)
Making something public by putting it somewhere extremely inconvenient to see is not making it public. If that were the case, my genitals would be considered quite public at the moment. Even though I'd rather you not see them, they are not locked in a single room. Even if I had photos of them on a device, which I would gladly share with people in person, that STILL does not make them public.
Re:TTIP Secret trade deal can only be read in secure 'readin... by EmanueleAina on Wednesday August 19, 2015 @07:11AM (#10084700)
I guess once the negotiations have ended, the full text will be available on the EU website, as many position statements already are. After that, many national governments will have to vote on it, and I guess you can consider those public acts too. I guess that's as much public as you can get, short of printing it up on every available wall.
Re:TTIP Secret trade deal can only be read in secure 'readin... by deciplex on Tuesday August 18, 2015 @03:39AM (#10077985)
Some industries are lobbying aggressively. You're right that, in principle, the negotiations should be kept secret from the public until the terms of the deals are ready to be voted on. However you are forgetting that 'the public' ought to include corporate interests (it largely does not - they are party to the negotiations).
Re:TTIP Secret trade deal can only be read in secure 'readin... by tptacek on Tuesday August 18, 2015 @10:40AM (#10079412)
That's true, but it's also true that labor is a party as well, as are many NGOs.

If you think about it, it's not very practical to craft a trade agreement with no input from industry. You just want to be very selective about which industries get to provide input and when.

The "democratic safeguard" part of this process should occur at the end, when unfair or broken trade agreements are unceremoniously rejected by legislatures. If legislatures did their jobs, the incentives to manipulate trade agreements would vanish: it would be a whole lot of time and effort spent for nothing.

Re:TTIP Secret trade deal can only be read in secure 'readin... by acqq on Monday August 17, 2015 @04:58PM (#10076071)
> The treaties themselves are public

Really? Only you claim that. Can you post the link please?

Re:TTIP Secret trade deal can only be read in secure 'readin... by tptacek on Monday August 17, 2015 @05:45PM (#10076355)
You're getting two different sets of documents confused.

The negotiating documents --- the early drafts of the treaty, which are not binding --- are certainly not public. They are closely guarded secrets; that secrecy exists to protect the "integrity" of the negotiating process, for a very narrow definition of "integrity" that mostly means "minimized direct lobbying".

But the treaties themselves have to be ratified to become binding law. They are published, for public review, before that happens.

Wikileaks is effectively asking for people to leak the negotiating documents.

Re:TTIP Secret trade deal can only be read in secure 'readin... by acqq on Monday August 17, 2015 @05:56PM (#10076405)
My understanding is that after the treaty is negotiated, the parliaments can just vote "yes" or "no" for the "whole package" (with the pressure to yes, as in "hey we've spent years to negotiate it!").
Re:TTIP Secret trade deal can only be read in secure 'readin... by tptacek on Monday August 17, 2015 @06:03PM (#10076439)
That is correct. Legislatures do not get line-item veto over trade agreements.

The agreement itself is public, usually for several months, prior to that vote.

I'm not sure why I'm meant to care about the "pressure" legislators feel to vote one way or the other on the acts. That's their job. They begged to have that job. They don't get to make excuses.

Re:TTIP Secret trade deal can only be read in secure 'readin... by anigbrowl on Monday August 17, 2015 @06:07PM (#10076457)
He is not the only person that claims that. In order to become law, the TTIP would have to be ratified by the Senate in the US and the EU Council of Ministers and EU Parliament in the EU. At the time it comes up for ratification it becomes public and is debated.

While it's being negotiated it's not public. I have no problem with that, any more than I have a problem with the authors of legislation drafting a bill in private before submitting it to the legislature for consideration, or the cabinet discussions of a government being private until a policy is settled upon and presented to the public.

Re:TTIP Secret trade deal can only be read in secure 'readin... by twoodfin on Monday August 17, 2015 @08:57PM (#10077050)
Note that for some time, trade agreements have been implemented in U.S. law via Executive-Legislative Agreement rather than via treaty ratification.

Thus TPP or TTIP will require (under "Fast Track") a majority vote in both the House and Senate, rather than 2/3 in the Senate alone.

Re:TTIP Secret trade deal can only be read in secure 'readin... by crusso on Monday August 17, 2015 @06:27PM (#10076547)
The problem comes into play when treaties and laws are negotiated in private committees and then foisted upon the general legislative bodies with very little time for debate or review.

Creating opposition takes time and by not allowing that time, the whole process becomes distinctly less democratic.

Re:TTIP Secret trade deal can only be read in secure 'readin... by tptacek on Monday August 17, 2015 @06:28PM (#10076552)
What's "very little time"?
Re:TTIP Secret trade deal can only be read in secure 'readin... by medecau on Monday August 17, 2015 @05:03PM (#10076107)
Re:TTIP Secret trade deal can only be read in secure 'readin... by acqq on Monday August 17, 2015 @05:09PM (#10076148)
If I understand correctly that's just what Wikipedia explains as:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatlantic_Trade_and_Invest...

"After a proposed draft was leaked in March 2014,[5] the European Commission launched a public consultation on a limited set of clauses and in January 2015 published parts of an overview.[6]"

Otherwise you would already earn 100000 EUR from Wikileaks by posting that link?