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Re:Brains Sweep Themselves Clean of Toxins During Sleep (2013) by roymurdock on Friday August 14, 2015 @04:16PM (#10062645)
My friends and I were up late on a road trip once. We started to argue about how long it would take someone to die from lack of sleep.

Initially, I held the position that sleep was probably more important than eating food, and that you would die from sleep deprivation before you died from starvation. We looked it up, and learned about a disease called fatal familial insomnia. A mutated protein causes the onset of permanent insomnia, and there is no cure. It affects about 100 individuals worldwide. [1]

The average life expectancy of a patient is 18 months after the onset of symptoms. The first 9 months is a worsening case of insomnia, where the patient will experience paranoia, panic attacks, and hallucinations. Sleeping pills and barbiturates have been shown to worsen the clinical manifestations and hasten the onset of the disease. The individual then becomes completely unable to sleep, and will enter a state of dementia before becoming completely mute and unresponsive. This second state of permanent insomnia lasts for 9 months.

So ultimately, we learned that you can go for 9 months without sleeping before you die. I'm not sure at what point you'll suffer irreversible brain damage, but that was an interesting finding for me nonetheless.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatal_familial_insomnia

Re:Brains Sweep Themselves Clean of Toxins During Sleep (2013) by jquery on Friday August 14, 2015 @04:32PM (#10062733)
From the article:

> Non REM Stages 1 and 2: Light sleep NREM-sleep

> Non REM Stages 3 and 4: Deep slow wave sleep (SWS)

> REM-sleep when dreams occur

> FFI patients cannot go past stage 1

It appears they are getting sleep, but only stage 1 sleep. That might be what keeps them alive for 9 months. If stage 1 was blocked, I venture to guess their survival duration would be much lower.

Re:Brains Sweep Themselves Clean of Toxins During Sleep (2013) by tim333 on Friday August 14, 2015 @05:40PM (#10063111)
Here's some other research data. In Guamtanamo they kept prisoners awake 11 days and found "surprisingly, little seem[s] to go wrong with the subjects physically." In rat experiments they all died by 32 days. I'm guessing full sleep depravation in humans would have a similar result to rats though thankfully no one seems to have tried that.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/20...

Re:Brains Sweep Themselves Clean of Toxins During Sleep (2013) by Panoramix on Friday August 14, 2015 @06:13PM (#10063314)
Not to veer off topic, but that's horrible and depressing.
Re:Brains Sweep Themselves Clean of Toxins During Sleep (2013) by WalterGR on Saturday August 15, 2015 @04:38AM (#10064740)
Though I can't recall any specific examples, I've heard that the experiments carried out in Nazi Germany added significantly to the scientific literature about what happens to the human body under extreme conditions.
Re:Brains Sweep Themselves Clean of Toxins During Sleep (2013) by saiya-jin on Saturday August 15, 2015 @09:51AM (#10065358)
... and since scientific results obtained in any way are good enough, US and russians were very happy to get their hands on Nazi "research" done in concentration camps. It was basically slow torture to death usually caused by infections from really twisted experiments, ie sewing in "patient" hay and observing him die slowly over weeks, without helping.

some would say once experiments were done and over, there isn't much that can be done to countless victims. albeit true, using these further gives some sort of approval on all of it (ie becessary evil BS).

Re:Brains Sweep Themselves Clean of Toxins During Sleep (2013) by stevoski on Saturday August 15, 2015 @07:58AM (#10065148)
I'd guess (and hope) that the Guantanamo results were not based on scientifically rigorous research.
Re:Brains Sweep Themselves Clean of Toxins During Sleep (2013) by sillysaurus3 on Friday August 14, 2015 @09:30PM (#10063956)
We looked it up, and learned about a disease called fatal familial insomnia. [...] You can go for 9 months without sleeping before you die.

Debunked here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6568961

A small percentage of people with fatal familial insomnia don't experience insomnia, yet they still die.

In other words, they die from the disease, not the insomnia.

Re:Brains Sweep Themselves Clean of Toxins During Sleep (2013) by idlewords on Friday August 14, 2015 @10:28PM (#10064090)
The point of the parent comment is that you can go at least nine months without sleep and not die from it, not that lack of sleep is the cause of death in FFI.
Re:Brains Sweep Themselves Clean of Toxins During Sleep (2013) by bluehazed on Friday August 14, 2015 @04:34PM (#10062748)
That's horrible. It's always fun to find out new and more terrifying ways to die!
Re:Brains Sweep Themselves Clean of Toxins During Sleep (2013) by chestervonwinch on Friday August 14, 2015 @05:03PM (#10062919)
getting off-topic, but here's one more for you:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibrodysplasia_ossificans_prog...

Re:Brains Sweep Themselves Clean of Toxins During Sleep (2013) by mratzloff on Friday August 14, 2015 @04:55PM (#10062874)
It sounds like the brain is running something like a defragmentation routine every night. If it doesn't complete, your thoughts become more and more incoherent.
Re:Brains Sweep Themselves Clean of Toxins During Sleep (2013) by alfonsoperez on Friday August 14, 2015 @06:41PM (#10063425)
Once I had some strong personal issues and spent a full 6-7 days without getting any sleep. At that point I was convinced that my neighbors (Pakistani) were from IS, I even started an investigation (using some tactics you can guess) in order to find evidence and was already seeking political asylum in the US. Now I think about it and it's even funny, but hell.
Re:Brains Sweep Themselves Clean of Toxins During Sleep (2013) by chipsy on Friday August 14, 2015 @06:46PM (#10063444)
New hypothesis: The reason the U.S. leans conservative relative to other countries is lack of sleep.
Re:Brains Sweep Themselves Clean of Toxins During Sleep (2013) by sitkack on Friday August 14, 2015 @07:18PM (#10063573)
You might be able to track this down using public data.
Re:Brains Sweep Themselves Clean of Toxins During Sleep (2013) by EC1 on Friday August 14, 2015 @08:41PM (#10063828)
I stayed awake for two weeks once. After the first 8ish days you start hearing and seeing odd things. Really helps with music production. Ventured into soundscapes I'll never come back to.
Re:Brains Sweep Themselves Clean of Toxins During Sleep (2013) by emerongi on Saturday August 15, 2015 @02:11AM (#10064507)
The longest I've been awake is 40h I think. I started hearing and seeing things at the 39th hour and that's when I decided to go to sleep.

I've got no clue how people stay awake for more than 48h; just last week I fell asleep in front of the computer after being awake for 24h. For me, it requires mental gymnastics to be able to go beyond that.

Re:Brains Sweep Themselves Clean of Toxins During Sleep (2013) by XorNot on Saturday August 15, 2015 @05:21AM (#10064823)
Past about 24 hours for me I start seeing things out of the corner of my eyes. Somewhat before that (on night's I get maybe 3 hours sleep) by the end of the day I get easily startled.
Re:Brains Sweep Themselves Clean of Toxins During Sleep (2013) by EC1 on Saturday August 15, 2015 @07:33PM (#10067372)
You need a constant "stay awake" feedback loop. Just power through it.
Re:Brains Sweep Themselves Clean of Toxins During Sleep (2013) by paulkon on Friday August 14, 2015 @05:10PM (#10062964)
I don't think it's moving memories around. If you desire a very loose OS comparison, it may be cleaning up temp files.
Re:Brains Sweep Themselves Clean of Toxins During Sleep (2013) by mratzloff on Friday August 14, 2015 @05:36PM (#10063092)
It would be doing both. I was basing this comment on prior studies. For example:

Sleep Lets Brain File Memories

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sleep-lets-brain-f...

Re:Brains Sweep Themselves Clean of Toxins During Sleep (2013) by adamwintle on Saturday August 15, 2015 @02:55AM (#10064582)
The subject of insomnia is very interesting to me. I don't even know if I'm medically an insomniac, I just know I've had sleep problems since I was about 19 years old.

Sometimes my friends say I'm forgetful, but I usually put it down to being trolled because I am sure the event or whatever didn't happen. But I do wonder if I have a random "Alzheimer moment".

It would be interesting to know if my sleeping problems were connected to my potential forgetfulness.

A quick search on YouTube reveals some (somewhat old) videos on the topic of fatal familial insomnia https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=fatal+familial+...

I thought this one was particularly good: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Co94aQDs3ek

Re:Brains Sweep Themselves Clean of Toxins During Sleep (2013) by WalterGR on Saturday August 15, 2015 @04:20AM (#10064718)

    Sometimes my friends say I'm forgetful, but I usually put it
    down to being trolled because I am sure the event or whatever
    didn't happen.
Obviously I don't know you or your friends but... at least in my personal social milieu - and those I've been witness to - this kind of "trolling" doesn't happen.

Do you have sibling or other close relative or friend who remembers your life with more clarity than you do?

If so, consider speaking with a medical professional.

    It would be interesting to know if my sleeping problems were
    connected to my potential forgetfulness.
So, even if not, wouldn't hurt to have a conversation.

They may not know shit about programming, but in my personal experience, they tend to know more than me about what's considered "normal."

Re:Brains Sweep Themselves Clean of Toxins During Sleep (2013) by saiya-jin on Saturday August 15, 2015 @10:45AM (#10065490)
no way you can go for 24-hour being completely awake for 9 months. you can fall into semi-sleep (weird states of trippy semi-consciousness, people daydreaming with open eyes etc.) that gives slight rest to tormented body and mind. Heck, if I cannot sleep, even laying down and closing eyes helps in resting, without sleeping. But if we're talking about healthy normal person who is forced not to sleep, my estimate is in 5-7 days he would die. Tried by military many times, used as torture tool not only during WWII (now they moved to water boarding)
Re:Brains Sweep Themselves Clean of Toxins During Sleep (2013) by poizan42 on Friday August 14, 2015 @04:47PM (#10062822)
There's no way you really can tell how much of the effect is due to the sleep deprivation and how much is due to neuronal loss.
Re:Brains Sweep Themselves Clean of Toxins During Sleep (2013) by modfodder on Friday August 14, 2015 @04:37PM (#10062761)
On a bit of a tangent, check out the novella Sleep Donation by Karen Russell. A short sci-fi tale about viral insomnia.
Re:Brains Sweep Themselves Clean of Toxins During Sleep (2013) by usaphp on Saturday August 15, 2015 @12:58AM (#10064373)
There was even a world record set by Randy Gardner [1] who was awake for more than 10 days and he was monitored by a research institute.

[1] - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randy_Gardner_(record_holder...

Re:Brains Sweep Themselves Clean of Toxins During Sleep (2013) by beagle3 on Saturday August 15, 2015 @01:48AM (#10064468)
This is the latest recorded Guiness record, but most definitely not the longest recorded awakeness period: see [0] and [1]

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randy_Gardner_%28record_holder...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Wright_%28sleep_deprivati...

Re:Brains Sweep Themselves Clean of Toxins During Sleep (2013) by stygiansonic on Saturday August 15, 2015 @02:06PM (#10066198)
There was a ST:TNG episode whose plot covered similar symptoms to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_Terrors_(Star_Trek:_The_...
Re:Brains Sweep Themselves Clean of Toxins During Sleep (2013) by twobits on Friday August 14, 2015 @11:23PM (#10064194)
"So ultimately, we learned that you can go for 9 months without sleeping before you die"

My "high score" is 3 days without sleeping. Think young, healthy, pretty physical, 1st year in university, while red alert 1 was hot. And I "kind of liked" red alert.

Outcome:

After that time, I layed on bed about noon, and woke up next day early afternoon. ~24+h later. Btw, I hadn't eaten the previous time. I managed to go to the uni restaurant with a friend, and there I semi collapsed, laying flat on 2 chairs, closed eyes, open mouth, slow breath. I was half a step from being rushed to the hospital, and one and a half steps from some serious life threatening situations. Didn't even have the energy to eat the food in front of me. What "saved" me, was that a concerned manager came, asked what's going on, and I asked for salted olive oils. He brought them in a hurry. I had barely enough energy to scrap the skin of the first one, and taste the juice. The first, took some time. And the second. After the third, I ate around 10 like there was no tomorrow. And then I had the energy to eat the food in front of me.

So, basically, IMHMO, no way you can survive 9 months without sleeping.

Re:Brains Sweep Themselves Clean of Toxins During Sleep (2013) by alanning on Saturday August 15, 2015 @12:19AM (#10064293)
I would guess dehydration also played a not insignificant part in your symptoms. When it happened to me (dehydration, not sleep deprivation), the extreme fatigue was the weirdest part. Surreal and disturbing how little I could move.
Re:Brains Sweep Themselves Clean of Toxins During Sleep (2013) by QuercusMax on Saturday August 15, 2015 @12:16AM (#10064285)
What's a salted olive oil? (Genuinely curious.)
Re:Brains Sweep Themselves Clean of Toxins During Sleep (2013) by kibibu on Saturday August 15, 2015 @12:22AM (#10064302)
Re:Brains Sweep Themselves Clean of Toxins During Sleep (2013) by twobits on Saturday August 15, 2015 @12:35AM (#10064328)
I meant olives, with extra salt on top of them. Salt, to immediately kick you off, (with no real nutritious support), and olives, for their fat and iron, and nutrients to sustain and feed you. In this case they were greek, but I suppose that doesn't really matter.