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Re:Court rules drug dog barely more accurate than a coin fli... by harryh on Friday August 07, 2015 @02:03PM (#10023941)
Keep in mind that the dog isn't putting people in jail. It's assertion is merely being used as evidence for probable cause and a more in depth search. As rayiner notes elsewhere in this thread being right over half the time is generally considered the acceptable standard for probable cause.
Re:Court rules drug dog barely more accurate than a coin fli... by shkkmo on Friday August 07, 2015 @02:10PM (#10023985)
> being right over half the time is generally considered the acceptable standard for probable cause.

Care to cite that?

Because that means that in a neighborhood where 51% of the houses contain narcotics, the police have probable cause to search every single house.

Re:Court rules drug dog barely more accurate than a coin fli... by rayiner on Friday August 07, 2015 @03:32PM (#10024503)
See Section IIA of: http://scholarship.law.duke.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=.... It explains that probable cause is generally considered a lower standard than preponderance of the evidence (which is a 51% standard).
Re:Court rules drug dog barely more accurate than a coin fli... by shkkmo on Friday August 07, 2015 @04:19PM (#10024754)
Actually it sort of directly contradicts you right at the start of that section:

>We do not know exactly what the phrase “probable cause” means, in strict numerical terms. We do, however, know what it does not mean: “probably.” That is, probable cause does not—in the context of Fourth Amendment law—mean that the police must have evidence sufficient to conclude that a suspect is probably guilty or that she probably has evidence of a crime hidden inside her home.

I didn't read the whole paper, but the gist of it seems to being exploring the difference between 'concrete' and 'statistical' and evidence of effects (with a non-conclusive, but general indication that the supreme court leans towards 'concrete' over 'statistical')

Basically if you have a 3 people in a car that contains drugs and thus know 1 of them is guilty, you have probable cause to arrest all of them. (Concrete)

However, if you know that 1/3 of the black people in a certain neighborhood posses drugs, that does not mean you have probably cause to arrest all of them. (Statistical)

Thus my argument is that the low accuracy rate of the dog vs. the baseline of the searched people (which in this case is only known because of the high alert rate) should not allow it to constitute 'concrete' evidence of probable cause.

Additionally, the overall success rate of the dog/officer combination vs. the general population baseline constitutes 'statistical' evidence which is also not sufficient for probable cause.

Generally, my argument would be that allowing the dogs to serve as a final determination of probable cause without requiring high accuracy rates leads to unnecessary harm to the general populace in the form of the unwarranted searched that could be prevented by encouraging effective training and usage.

Re:Court rules drug dog barely more accurate than a coin fli... by belovedeagle on Friday August 07, 2015 @02:39PM (#10024166)
You're missing the point entirely. We don't care terribly much about the people who eventually go to jail, at least not in isolation.

The problem is innocent people who get searched illegally. Being sent to jail is not the only bad thing which can happen to people; being searched without probable cause is inherently unacceptable without regards to the results of the search.

Re:Court rules drug dog barely more accurate than a coin fli... by harryh on Friday August 07, 2015 @02:42PM (#10024185)
Being incorrectly sent to jail is much worse than being incorrectly searched.

Therefore the standard of evidence for sending people to jail is higher than the standard of evidence to search people.

Therefore the standard of evidence for probable cause is lower than the standard of evidence for a criminal conviction.

Re:Court rules drug dog barely more accurate than a coin fli... by CamperBob2 on Friday August 07, 2015 @03:04PM (#10024326)
Being incorrectly sent to jail is much worse than being incorrectly searched.

Not from a Constitutional law standpoint. They are both violations of the subject's civil rights, when the search is based on a pretense, a pretext, or a coin flip.

Re:Court rules drug dog barely more accurate than a coin fli... by shkkmo on Friday August 07, 2015 @03:39PM (#10024546)
He is not talking about being worse 'constitutionally'. He is absolutely correct in saying that being sent to jail is worse than being searched. I suspect he is correct positing that is why the standards of evidence for conviction (beyond a reasonable doubt) are higher than for search (probable cause).

He is however missing the point in that he is bringing up a separate standard of evidence that has no bearing on the issue being discussed. Being searched isn't bad just because it can lead to you going to jail.

Re:Court rules drug dog barely more accurate than a coin fli... by CamperBob2 on Friday August 07, 2015 @03:44PM (#10024565)
He is not talking about being worse 'constitutionally'. He is absolutely correct in saying that being sent to jail is worse than being searched. I suspect he is correct positing that is why the standards of evidence for conviction (beyond a reasonable doubt) are higher than for search (probable cause).

Perhaps, but my point is that neither standard is being met. If the officer didn't have PC before calling in a dog with the performance history described in the article, then he doesn't have PC afterwards either.

It is not OK to violate one aspect of the Fourth Amendment just because it appears (in someone's opinion) to call for less stringent adherence than other aspects.

Re:Court rules drug dog barely more accurate than a coin fli... by shkkmo on Friday August 07, 2015 @02:53PM (#10024259)
Your statements are correct but you are still missing the point.
Re:Court rules drug dog barely more accurate than a coin fli... by harryh on Friday August 07, 2015 @03:03PM (#10024316)
Clearly you (and some others) think that the standard for probable cause should be higher than it is. Maybe you are right. Maybe you are not. It's a grey area for sure.
Re:Court rules drug dog barely more accurate than a coin fli... by shkkmo on Friday August 07, 2015 @04:44PM (#10024905)
No, I think that training dogs to reliably provide probable cause rather than to reliably find drugs is both stupid and unconstitutional. That has nothing to do with how high the bar for 'probable cause' should be.
Re:Court rules drug dog barely more accurate than a coin fli... by CamperBob2 on Friday August 07, 2015 @03:05PM (#10024339)
No, his statement isn't even correct. The Bill of Rights is not divided into venial and mortal sins, and even if it were, I'd argue that the Fourth Amendment would not fall into the former category.
Re:Court rules drug dog barely more accurate than a coin fli... by harryh on Friday August 07, 2015 @03:11PM (#10024366)
The Fourth Amendment reads "no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause." Why do you think it says this instead of "no Warrants shall issue, but upon cause beyond reasonable doubt." ?
Re:Court rules drug dog barely more accurate than a coin fli... by CamperBob2 on Friday August 07, 2015 @03:18PM (#10024411)
If the tool for determining probable cause is no better than a coin flip -- which is in fact the case (see my other post) -- then the intent of the amendment is being circumvented. It's the whole "probable" thing that's the issue at hand.
Re:Court rules drug dog barely more accurate than a coin fli... by harryh on Friday August 07, 2015 @03:20PM (#10024429)
You didn't answer my question.
Re:Court rules drug dog barely more accurate than a coin fli... by CamperBob2 on Friday August 07, 2015 @03:28PM (#10024474)
Here's what usually happens at this point in a politically-charged HN thread: I ask a question along the lines of, "Why are you so interested in defending an indefensible aspect of an indefensible war on an abstract noun?", and then I get a nasty note from the admins warning against personal attacks, even though none was intended.

So we'll need to agree to disagree on this one. I suspect we're coming from two very different places.

Re:Court rules drug dog barely more accurate than a coin fli... by harryh on Friday August 07, 2015 @03:31PM (#10024495)
Our legal system very much distinguishes between venial and mortal sins. You can see that in the very language of the 4th amendment which is why I asked my question. The amendment recognizes that searching someone puts a far smaller burden on them than putting them in jail which is why the standard of proof is very different for those two actions.

My point here has nothing to do with the war on drugs. The same standard applies if law enforcement is searching for drugs or guns or stolen property.

You should ponder this some and then consider changing your point of view so that you can be correct more often in the future.