jeddawson

I would love to chat about how I could help your mission. I'm an independent software developer that has spent my entire career working in waste. Former VP of Engineering at Routeware and now doing consulting with haulers to achieve exactly what you describe here: business process automation with agentic solutions. My current project (https://getklau.com) is all about wrapping roll-off dispatching with agentic tools to help dispatchers make better decisions and drive more value (disposal arbitrage is the big unlock here).

The purchasing process is the barrier to entry. Municipalities are required to run a request for proposal on anything over ~10k. The RFP gets awarded to a PE owned manufacturer that then takes 4+ years to deliver. The municipality is locked into the vehicles they don't have so a new market entry needs to simultaneously establish a track record that qualifies them for being awarded an RFP and be able to wait out the purchase lag. Not impossible, but easier said than done.

Happy Thanksgiving! 10+ solid years as a near daily HN lurker :)

Be sure to give your parents (and other seniors in your life) a phishing and subscriptions checkup this weekend!

https://edisoncode.com/articles/holiday-phone-safety-guide-f...

Came here to say the same. Love seeing waste industry stuff at HN :)

Prairie Robotics (and similar) is another interesting take on the problem at the industrial scale. They are recognizing contamination as the waste is collected so the generators (houses/businesses) can be notified and educated.

Oh interesting, we generally don't go to WasteCon due to how focused it is on public sector since we have a better product fit with independent haulers (we do have several municipalities using our software though). Maybe we should be going though - always good to expand our horizons. Feel free to shoot me an email at: my first name at edisoncode.com

Thanks for sharing! If you go to Waste Expo (not sure if the big 3 send software engineers), it'd be cool to grab a beer and connect.

It really depends on the region since landfill rates vary wildly. In California: most likely yes since landfilling is relatively expensive, but again depends.

Waste haulers have always had a non-zero expense for recycling even when the processed materials had strong values. This is because the recycling has to be collected, transported, sorted/processed, then shipped again. Depending on the local market, regulations, incentives/subsidies, and distances involved for shipping it can very easily end up that a negative commodity price tips the scales in favor of landfilling.

Also, it's worth noting that some portion of the recycling stream will end up in a landfill regardless of the commodity price because it's contaminated (or just not a recyclable material) which has an impact on the overall cost per ton of recycling. Commodity prices going negative just push this to include more of the stream since it means only the "best" materials are economically viable for further processing and shipping. It's a balancing act that the industry has been doing internally for a long time, but now it's becoming a serious issue since large amounts of the recycling stream need to be landfilled if we don't want to spend a whole lot more than we already do on solid waste.

I work in the industry too. I'm always curious about what other's in this industry do when they're on HN, so if you're able can you share what you do?

As far as me: I'm the lead engineer for the mobile and api products at one of the major software providers for independent waste haulers in the US. My family owns and operates a hauling operation in CA, so I've spent my entire life surrounded by the inner workings of solid waste collection, hauling, and processing.

Nice ride! We don't have Bend's views, but the gravel is good down here on the central coast of Ca. So cool to see other cyclists/athletes in the comments on HN.

https://www.strava.com/activities/2108212513

Not only that, but once they realized the message was sent in error they didn't have a simple way to correct course so there was a big delay between the realization and informing the terrified public.

Your suggestion of having multiple user confirmations coupled with a simple way to "cancel and correct" the notice would have likely meant this never became news worthy.

Sure sounds like it!

What is confusing is that the article still points to the UI as being a part of the problem though while they're now saying the employee intentionally sent the live message. Looks like the PR campaign is still trying to deflect blame or perhaps keep things just ambiguous enough that they'll be able to rush through some extra spending to "fix" the UI issue.

Hopefully more details will continue being shared and they deal with the organizational flaws instead of pouring blame on scape goats (software and individuals).

A bit of background: I've done thousands of hours of driving in rolloff trucks. They're semi's that load debris containers onto rails mounted over the chassis, haul the load to the transfer station/landfill, and deliver containers to job sites. Now I write software for the industry that I used to labor in.

I completely sympathize with the concerns in the article, but I have faith that Tesla will be able to overcome the challenges and some of them are perhaps not looking at the trucking industry "of the future" here's a good example:

The concern about a roll down window isn't that big of a deal. Doing rolloff meant crossing a scale multiple times per day where you'd exchange paperwork with the scale house attendant. I just completed a project that will keep drivers in the cab while at a landfill/transfer station if they have a tablet and the site is connected with our scale software. All of the interaction is done on a tablet while the truck is on the scale, the driver never leaves their seat or rolls down a window. If we're doing stuff like this for garbage, surely other trucking is going to be be digitizing these types of interactions and there are some nice big screens in the truck to make it easy.

The biggest concern that I share is the passing issue with a center seat, but that should be easily solved with a camera that shows a forward view when a turn signal is engaged. Two big screens mean you'd get a forward and all the blind spot views necessary to make a safe pass.

Side note: If Tesla wants to make a version for hauling trash, they could have an enormous impact on local emissions.

It'll be interesting how this works at homes with pets. I could see that being a major concern for a household that would otherwise be fine with an in home delivery. Will Amazon have couriers that are diligent enough to ensure an escaped cat is returned?

This is a really well done analysis of Rubicon's fundamental flaw and a huge reason why you see the main players all owning landfills. Trash is simply too profitable and easily corrupts any organization no matter how well intentioned they start out. That corruption has clearly hit Rubicon's sales team at least in some instances.

Not owning any of the "infrastructure" may seem like a huge positive from an cost standpoint, but I think they'll have to invest and re-invent a lot of the physical collection and processing tech in order to achieve their stated recycling goals.

Optimizing how/when waste is collected through modern software is a massive improvement and certainly we don't need to be collecting all materials every week. So there are huge gains to be had there from an environmental standpoint, but relying on infrastructure that is already optimized for moving trash to a nearby landfill is going to really hold back any effort to increase recycling rates.

I bet they can pull through this with all the funding they've received, but it sure does seem like they're a classic brokerage firm that happens to make an app for their haulers.

I've actually been working on something that this article applies to and it was refreshing to step out of my comfort zone and reanalyze how things might work out with a fresh perspective. I found it helpful to think through the new challenges that were created by the change in viewpoint and I feel reassured that I have solutions ready.

Have you used any that are actually effective? Please share if so :)

I work within the trash collection industry and we've tried several different optimization schemes that in general don't come close to optimal efficiency. The marketing for a lot of the optimization companies would lead you to believe that they're able to unlock a lot more efficiency than they actually deliver. Our clients that have applied algorithms to optimize their routes quickly reverted to human optimization since the algorithms fail to provide any benefit and typically require tremendous effort to get started.

I would love to discover an algorithm that is able to consistently provide actually optimized collection routes without hand holding!

My guess is that the returning of the supplies could result in a lower carbon footprint. The whole delivery system is optimized for getting products from supplier to receiver, so there's a decent amount of unused capacity for getting items back into the delivery system. The "last mile" delivery trucks progress from full to near empty throughout the day and likely already pass or get super close to homes that could be returning packaging thus keeping the vehicle near capacity throughout the day. Once back into the delivery network the returning packaging should fill existing extra capacity especially as it get's closer to the supplier where they're already shipping out a much higher volume than they are receiving. Just a guess, but that's how I've rationalized it ;)

We've recently tried out Terra's Kitchen primarily because they ship the meals in a reusable container that is returned to them. There's still a small amount of plastic that we have to dispose of, but the overall amount of waste seems to be dramatically lower than the competitors.

http://www.terraskitchen.com/how-it-works/

Just do something you love! It really doesn't matter what degree you have or what your skill set is at the start. Passion to accomplish something or contextual enjoyment will carry you through the low points. I have multiple acquaintances that range for very to barely successful that have trusted their gut and listened to their passion. They're all happy.

I should note that I'm not talking about founding something based on your passion. One of my friends works at a bike shop and absolutely loves it. He's had to adjust his living situation and lifestyle to match his income, but the result is a happier human.

This certainly doesn't help you figure out a specific career, but my point is that the possibilities are endless just trust your gut feelings!

They will most certainly do well! They're essentially a Broker++ since they are treating the haulers as their customer too (or at least saying that). Brokerages have traditionally treated the haulers poorly so if they can get the relationship with the hauler right things should work out really well for them.

Either way I predict success. Down the line they'll be acquired by Waste Management, Republic, or Waste Connections to become another Oak Leaf.

This is why we have the current level of regulation in the waste industry. It has lead to exclusive contracts with haulers that have to report their weights to a local authority. There are many areas with non-exclusive contracts too that allow some appearance of competition, but again only haulers that comply with a significant set of rules (and pay fees) are able to operate in the area.

It's a double edged sword for sure. I'd love to see more open and creative competition in the industry, but since disposal and transportation costs make up such a huge % of a hauler's expenses there will certainly be corrupt entities dumping waste in a canyon somewhere just outside of your community.

Tracking the waste from source to destination accurately and in a way that people can truly trust will certainly be a key to success here. It's worth noting that it is still very likely that some contracted and "compliant" haulers are doing things with your waste that they shouldn't. So that's another place that a start up could potentially differentiate themselves.

I think it will really depend on how they approach and work with the haulers. It sounds like they are providing them with an app that will help them manage their other accounts more efficiently so some haulers might really enjoy the trade off.

Also, it's important to view this initiative as a rebirth of the waste broker. They're already super common in the industry handling the waste collection services for all the locations of large corporations, they negotiate with haulers to service each site then make sure services are performed. They tack on a fee for streamlining/managing this service for each company.

One of the larger brokers was purchased by Waste Management a few years ago. Since WM is a hauler too, they're now gathering tons of data about each market that can be used when bidding against smaller/independent haulers. Lot's of haulers would be happy to help another broker succeed to get WM out of their affairs.

As others have noted the types of services vary widely by region and jurisdiction. Some have exclusive contracts with a single hauler to provide residential and commercial collection. Some have their own gov owned/operated fleet. Some contract for residential and let commercial have an open market.

The wild variety of situations means that large companies don't want to have to wade through all the possibilities at each of their locations and instead hire a broker to manage their waste at all sites. The broker then works out how to get them service everywhere and uses their domain knowledge to get a decent price from the hauler where negotiation is possible.

It appears to me that these guys are a Broker++ since they are building meaningful relationships with the haulers that service their customers. As they say in the article they have two customers (the waste producer, and the waste hauler). This is definitely a departure from the typical broker that treat the haulers poorly (delaying payments, short paying, never paying, ridiculous requirements, etc for the haulers). I can see it working out really well for them if haulers are comfortable letting this company inject themselves into their trucks via an app.

FYI - I work in the industry writing software for independent waste haulers. Before that I operated my family's waste hauling operation in CA. We offered 1x week residential and up to 6x per week commercial collection as part of an exclusive contract with the City. Our customers paid us directly but that's not always the case with city contracts.

I did some googling to see how it worked out for them and found this: https://blog.listia.com/2011/01/16/a-startup-turning-trash-i...

From that it looks like their domain isn't in use now so my assumption is they closed up shop. Does anyone know if they pivoted further out of refuse market or were acquired by someone?

I have a related question, but switched around: I have a US based company that recently started paying an international contractor (individual) for some programming work. He’s not a W2 employee and being that he’s not a US citizen I’ve just been paying him in full and not withholding anything for taxes. This mirrors how I’ve paid other US based 1099 contractors.

As the project has gained momentum and is looking to be something that will continue long-term, it has me wondering about the correct process. A couple weeks ago I spent a few hours researching IRS documents and posts found by googling, but nothing was conclusive. Some of the information I found indicated what I’ve been doing is correct, but I need to have the contractor sign a W-8BEN [1]. Other information indicated that I should be withholding 30% of his earnings even though he meets the standard to be a 1099 contractor if he was a US citizen.

Do others have experience with this and what can you offer as advice?

[1] https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/fw8ben.pdf

Thank you for the tip!

Are you planning anything for B2B?

I’m working on an idea that will need to pay hundreds of vendors for the services they perform for our customers. We want to pay the vendors electronically where possible so having unique card numbers for each vendor would be a great thing.

After looking at Privacy.com I want to take it a step further by generating a unique card number for each of our customers. We’d need higher spending limits and the ability to manage the cards via API. Other than that, what you’ve built sounds like a perfect fit for our use case.

I think we're on the same page. I don't use the platform to get work for myself, but I don't think it's a completely useless platform. That's all I was trying to convey.

It has its place and I do my part to make sure that the qualified people that I hire on it are well compensated with clear expectations and no need to hope for tips. Maybe I'm doing them a disservice by offering a glimpse of sunlight on a platform that otherwise stacks the cards against them. You have me wondering.

I 100% agree with you that it's mostly a crap shoot of competing with people that have a cost of living that is so utterly different that ours that it's impossible to make a living. But I do think there are some niche skills where this is not the case and people with a high cost of living can still thrive on the platform.