News for hackers. Stuff that matters.

jaschasd

It does! See the effect strength plot near the bottom of the blog post, or Figures 2b and 3d in the paper.

The effect strength on humans ranges from a few percent deviation of human judgements from chance for subtle adversarial perturbations (epsilon=2), to ~15% deviations of human judgement from chance for large magnitude perturbations in the largest magnitude experimental condition.

This comment is incorrect.

For experiments 1 through 4, N was 38, 389, 396, and 389. The subjects were not undergrad psych students.

The article linked in the parent comment does not correspond to any experiment in the blog post or the Nature Comms paper.

Re:Too much efficiency makes everything worse on Friday November 11, 2022 @01:12PM (#33564444)
I can't reply directly -- is there a maximum thread depth, or a maximum conversation depth?

Anyway -- I wanted to apologize for misreading -- I missed the parenthetical "interpolation" in your comment. I think we are both interpreting the plot the same way.

In terms of your comment about anecdotal evidence -- are you talking about the case where data and model size are increased jointly? If so, I agree, though I don't think that is any longer cleanly to do with double descent/overparameterization.

Re:Too much efficiency makes everything worse on Friday November 11, 2022 @12:43PM (#33563993)
(the plot shows extreme overfitting with a 10 parameter model, and interpolation with a 10,000 parameter model)
Re:Too much efficiency makes everything worse on Friday November 11, 2022 @12:03PM (#33563346)
It's true that I don't go into detail about double descent, though I do describe how increasing capacity often reduces overfitting.

I believe the figure labeled "Figure 1" illustrates what your are suggesting (despite being labeled Figure 1, it is actually at the bottom of the blog post, so maybe easy to miss).

Re:Too much efficiency makes everything worse on Friday November 11, 2022 @10:30AM (#33562024)
Thanks! I'm also adding this to my reading list now.
Re:Too much efficiency makes everything worse on Friday November 11, 2022 @10:29AM (#33561998)
Blog post author here.

A brief note that I do discuss the deep double descent phenomenon in the blog. See the section starting with "One of the best understood causes of extreme overfitting is that the expressivity of the model being trained too closely matches the complexity of the proxy task."

I avoided using the actual term double descent, since I thought it would add unnecessary complexity. Lesson learned for next time -- I should have at least had an endnote using that terminology!

Re:Too much efficiency makes everything worse on Friday November 11, 2022 @10:20AM (#33561885)
See response to alexmolas -- I'm using GitHub Pages + Jekyll + Markdeep. You don't see the source repo because it's private, but I'm happy to share a code snapshot with you if you like -- email me for it.
Re:Too much efficiency makes everything worse on Friday November 11, 2022 @10:18AM (#33561857)
Yes! In the post I talk about both under- and over-parameterization being mitigations for overfitting, though I don't use the term double descent.
Re:Too much efficiency makes everything worse on Friday November 11, 2022 @10:14AM (#33561805)
+1. It doesn't require there to be a time axis -- but in practice, we almost always optimize incrementally, so it takes a while for the strong version of Goodhart's law to kick in.
Re:Too much efficiency makes everything worse on Friday November 11, 2022 @10:12AM (#33561773)
Yup, it's GitHub pages. It's just a private repo, so the world doesn't get to see my embarrassing edits and half written drafts. I would be happy to share a snapshot of the source code with you if you have a specific use for it though -- email me.

I'm using the minima Jekyll theme. I also used Markdeep (https://casual-effects.com/markdeep/) rather than vanilla markdown to write the post. (Markdeep is awesome. It took me a full day to figure out how to get it to play nice with Jekyll, but in the end of course it turned out to be simple. You can see how I did it by looking at the blog page source -- note the <pre class="markdeep"> block, and the "mode: 'html'" option.)

Re:Too much efficiency makes everything worse on Friday November 11, 2022 @10:04AM (#33561658)
+1 to this comment! The barrier between (thinking we) know what changes should happen, and realizing those changes in the real world, is complex and frustrating and political.
Re:Too much efficiency makes everything worse on Friday November 11, 2022 @10:00AM (#33561596)
A gentle note that an incomplete piece of a goal (e.g. a loss function computed on a subset of the data) is a proxy for the full goal (e.g. the loss function on the full dataset).

Similarly, concept drift can be a source of overfitting -- the objective you care about is the one after the concept drift occurred, but the objective you trained on is the one from before the concept drift. (Here's a scholar search for papers where the two concepts co-occur: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&as_vis... )

Re:Too much efficiency makes everything worse on Friday November 11, 2022 @09:50AM (#33561481)
A note that the datapoints you train on are part of the training objective. If you are using different data at test time than you use at training time, then you are measuring the wrong thing during training, the same as if you used a different loss function at training time.

Also -- as you say, feedback loops and non-stationarity make everything more complex, and are ubiquitous in the real world! But in machine learning we also see overfitting phenomena in systems with feedback loops -- e.g. in reinforcement learning or robotics, where the system changes depending on the agent's behavior.

(blog author here)

Re:Too much efficiency makes everything worse on Friday November 11, 2022 @01:26AM (#33557881)
(blog post author here)

Yes! The post actually talks about that a bit: how overfitting can result from treating "leaders that have the most support in the population" as a proxy for "leaders that act in the best interests of the population"; and some ideas for improving that with noise regularization or capacity restrictions.

Re:Too much efficiency makes everything worse on Friday November 11, 2022 @01:19AM (#33557855)
Blog post author here. Just for the record, I am very much in favor of metric-driven decision making. I suggest some ways we can make it more robust, and also that we should be aware that our metrics may not be measuring what we intend.
Re:Too much efficiency makes everything worse on Friday November 11, 2022 @01:07AM (#33557788)
Author of blog post here!

Overfitting can happen in many ways -- your training objective can be different at train and test time, or as you suggest the datapoints you use can be different at train and test time.

For overfitting induced by datapoints: If you include the datapoints in your problem specification, then you can say they induce bias at test time. If you treat the choice of training datapoints as a random variable, separate from the problem specification, then you can say they induce variance at test time. The difference is essentially semantic though. In general, you can freely move contributions to the error between bias and variance terms by changing which aspects of the modeling framework you define as fixed by the problem definition, and which you take to be stochastic.

They show the source images next to the super-resolution output on the website for the iterative refinement paper: https://iterative-refinement.github.io/
Don't forget Neural Tangents, a high level library for building and running experiments with infinite width neural networks: https://github.com/google/neural-tangents