jamager

Duolingo doesn't work because that's the point.

Same problem as dating apps: if you could actually learn a language with Duolingo, then you would stop using Duolingo. No good for business.

The hard part is how to trick people into believing that it works or even "it's better than nothing". Hence gamification.

Yes. Also, they don't need much vocabulary, no grammar concerns, no reading/writing.

We much overestimate how well kids learn, and how "easy" is for them. Many kids have language difficulties, and they usually know, and they don't feel too great about it.

FSI estimates are taken from diplomatics who study full time in preparation for their job. Not a good approximation for most people.

This is a far better one: https://www.cambridge.org/elt/blog/wp-content/uploads/2018/1...

I am working in this space as well. Habit formation / self-learning is a big easy because overwhelming majority of people prefers more structured / guided content. This makes SRS very niche.

The part of seeing "You still need to decide what’s worth remembering" as friction I strongly disagree with.

That is a very important part of the learning process and IMO should not be automated. It is difficult because learning is difficult, but if you kill that you also kill the spirit of self-learning!

And not mentioned in the article, but I think the most important factor is that everyone in the SRS niche knows Anki, and despite Anki faults, everyone has put the effort to learn how to use it, got used to it, found a good-enough workflow, and have zero incentive to move to a more expensive alternative even if it is better.

Yes, thou the main problem stated in the article ("memorizing the rectangles") is very real. Now, I don't think you need much magic / LLM stuff to overcome that problem:

1. Instead of the usual "1 new word, 1 card" have 2 - 3 new words on each card, and have each new word in 3 - 4 different cards (ideally with different inflection, meaning, nuance, etc) 2. Review cards fast and very few times each. Like 5 - 8 times / card (max) instead of usual 15 - 20. 3. Don't punish yourself, keep moving on even if you just half-remember. First familiarize and then internalize language patterns instead of just memorize words.

Review intentionally, totally concentrated on the task. 10 mins / day well done >>> 30 mins / day mindlessly.

Outcome: more fun, more effective learning, no memorizing rectangles.

> What is "good for one's brain" (apart from proper nutrition and absence of concussions) is a strong education and healthy lifelong social interactions

Sure, but I think this is more about the fact that what you don't use, you lose. Learning languages is hard, so even learning old Greek keeps you brain sharp as long as you enjoy it to some extent.

Gym for the brain is good, what you do with it can be better, but gym is still good.

Yes. AI transcription is great, AI translation is OK (depending on language pair), but TTS is still pretty awful for most languages.

> nor is there ever going to be a 100% freedom-from-error

That is not a problem. Language is messy, you don't need 100% accuracy to learn. The problem is that LLM errors are fundamentally different from human errors, and you won't even know how to recognize them.

Your interlocutors can work around human errors, because they tend to follow the same patterns in same language. But they will freak out with LLM errors.

> Natural language acquisition is almost entirely listening and talking

Listening and reading. Talking goes last. See Steve Kaufmann, for example

Spaced repetition = information retrieval. You need the other part, encoding information. Best "trick" to encode information effectively is to "make it yours" in the best way you can. Develop, explore, follow rabbit holes, ask yourself questions about what you are learning, engage emotionally with the content, write down what you learn in your own words, etc.

For very popular languages: there are tons of human-made content specific for language learning, which is always far better than what any LLM can offer.

For low resource / endangered languages: LLMs still suck.

So no, I don't see the point of this beyond being cheap to produce and cheap to consume.

Exactly. For projects taking multiple years, eventually motivation will run dry. Good habits is what compels you to do the thing when you don't feel like doing the thing.

I apologize for the ad hominems.

1. You don't need to learn hundreds of random languages in order to claim you like languages. Most people feel attracted by some languages and not others, so your generalization point doesn't make any sense.

2. For most people I know language is fun once they start to communicate meaningfully, no need to be on the professional leagues.

3. Some people likes to learn a bit of many languages, others like to learn a ton of just two, others don't have enough time to learn as much as the would like, others like languages but maybe also likes sports as much. Even then, almost 1/2 of world population is bilingual and ~1/6 speaks more than 2 languages.

4. The overwhelming majority of people has the tremendous skill of being able to enjoy something in spite of not having any immediate payoffs. Otherwise no one would be doing difficult things of any kind and we all would be great at filling tax forms.

> In general, I'm sorry to say, I think language learning is a tremendous waste of time and effort for almost everybody

I take from that that you dont like Finnish, you learn it because you have to, and your level is not good enough yet to participate in society exclusively in Finnish.

Nothing wrong with that, but you are generalizing a lot from a very specific context.

A lot of profient L2 speakers will tell you that L2 learning is a very enriching experience indeed.

You are right, I will get around that. For what is worth, I do not keep the email address.

Rating yourself is an important trait of SRS, it forces you to think how you are doing, what is good enough and what not, what is more or less important, etc.

For language learning only, but perhaps my own https://thehardway.app model suits you better (flashcards inside markdown-ish notes)

This made my day, thanks!

I wrote https://thehardway.guide just about that, in case it helps.

Italki, LingQ, Languagetransfer, StoryLearning...

There is nothing wrong with learning via translation.

What Duolingo does wrong is many other things: emotional manipulation, lack of context, low content density, countless distractions, being mobile first, and a long list. But translation is OK.

Daily practice is very important, yes, but languages are genuinely difficult beasts on their own.

Thousands of words and grammar rules that you need to grasp real time. Just mindless or Duolingo-ish daily practice doesn't take you nearly there.

No, it is because Duolingo is an addictive trap optimized for "engagement" (not learning) that requires you an absurd amount of time to progress very little, because it is explicitly designed to be ineffective with the looks of being effective (that's how they make money).

Want alternatives? Among apps, LingQ, for example, or LanguageTransfer. Among not apps, Lonely Planet phrasebooks and StoryLearning graded readers.

There are really many good options if one bothers to search.

The benefit of real human-made music is that you can make it for yourself. The goal shouldn't be to get other people to listen to it. It's very personal and that should be the end goal.

Anki is in fact not an alternative to anything, it is the de-facto flashcard tool. Nothing else comes remotely close, free or paid.

i'd wish if retention was about useful features, but alas it is not.

in modern day retention = any dark pattern and emotional manipulation trick to keep you "engaged" without actually learning, because if you learn something you would of course stop using the thing and watching great ads.

Thanks!

I am the opposite, I always prefer local/offline if there is the option, I use 0 web apps.

On the video, yes, I totally need a video.

Good luck to you as well!

thank you very much, will be happy to hear what you think!