briancr

Yes, multithreading seems to be a consistent theme among the comments.. so I should definitely look into that. Thanks for the comment. (I actually haven’t done much threaded programming myself so this would be a learning experience for me..)

Yes and the simplicity extends to function definitions too, since you don’t have to specify any type info. E.g.

f :: { ; print(args) }

Brevity is especially nice for inline/anonymous functions.

You can definitely use args.num, args.type[], and args.indices[] to figure out which optional parameters were passed, but I’ve decided that it’s usually easier to pass a full set of parameters into C and have the scripted wrapper handle the optional params. This is easy in Cicada because of ‘code substitution’ (one of the innovations I’m proudest of and if you’ve seen this elsewhere please let me know!). Example:

callC :: {

    mandatoryArgs :: { int, int }

    optionalArgs :: { str :: string; str = “default” }

    code

    mandatoryArgs = args

    optionalArgs(), (optionalArgs<<args)()    | set default, then allow user to change it

    $Cfunction(mandatoryArgs, optionalArgs)

}

Then you can call it with or without modifying the optional parameters from their default values.

callC(2, 3) | uses the default string

callC(2, 3; str = “modified param”)

callC() runs its arguments as a function, substituted into the params variable, allowing the arguments to modify params. This is weird and I haven’t seen it elsewhere, but it’s very useful.

“IMO it's pointless to distinguish syntactically between iterating forwards and backwards” — I completely agree. It’s really a compiler-macro limitation that’s preventing me from doing this.. though I don’t have to go that route.

I think what you’re suggesting would require the <a, b> syntax to produce a proper iterator type, which it doesn’t currently do. That’s definitely worth considering — then you could attach methods, etc.

Thanks for the suggestion! I’ll think about the best way to fix this..

Also, if someone else has access to the member, meaning that there is an alias to the member, then the reference count should reflect that. Here’s an example:

i :: int | 1 reference

a := @i | 2 references

remove i | 1 reference

The data originally allocated for ‘i’ should persist because its reference count hasn’t hit zero yet.

No, there are both referenced-based and tracing-based GC routines that will deallocate short-lived objects. Sorry, I was just trying to enumerate the ways memory goes out of scope to show that none of those ways results in an invalid pointer _within the scripting language_.

The safety comes because there is no way to access a pointer address within the scripting language. The main functionality of pointers is replaced by aliases (e.g. a = @b.c, a = @array[2], etc.). The only use of pointers is behind the scenes, e.g. when you write ‘b.c’ there is of course pointer arithmetic behind the scenes to find the data in member ‘b’.

Having said that, it is certainly possible for a C callback routine to store an internal pointer, then on a second callback try to use that pointer after it has fallen out of scope. This is the only use-after-free I can imagine.

Seconded.

Yes very C-like.. One immediate difference is that in these C-like scripting languages there’s a split between definitions and executable commands. In Cicada there are only executable commands: definitions are done using a define operator. (That’s because everything is on the heap; Cicada functions don’t have access to the stack). I personally think the latter method makes more sense for command-line interactivity, but that’s a matter of taste.

Yes I like this one. It’s similar and even more C-like, in that it discriminates between classes, class instances, functions, methods vs constructors, etc. (Cicada does not).

This one’s Brood VI!

Very cool! I’ve never used Kotlin..

There’s no multithreading so race conditions don’t apply. That simplifies things quite a bit.

There’s actually no ‘free’, but in the (member -> variable data) ontology of Cicada there are indeed a few ways memory can become disused: 1) members can be removed; 2) members can be re-aliased; 3) arrays or lists can be resized. In those conditions the automated/manual collection routines will remove the disused memory, and in no case is there any dangling ‘pointer’ (member or alias) pointing to unallocated memory. Does this answer your question?

I agree that my earlier statement wasn’t quite a complete explanation.

Of course, since it interfaces with C, it’s easy to overwrite memory in the callback functions.

Yes there are lots of runtime checks.. unfortunately, but I always fork the time-consuming calculations into C anyway so those checks don’t really affect overall performance much.

Scripted functions have no set arity, and the same applies to callback C functions. Scripted functions collect their arguments inside an ‘args’ variable. Likewise, each C function has a single ‘argsType’ argument which collects the argument pointers & type info, and there are macros to help unpack them but if you want to do the unpacking manually then the function can be called variadically:

ccInt myCfunction(argsType args)

{ for (int a = 0; a < args.num; a++) printf(“%p\n”, args.p[a]); return 0; }

So all functions are automatically variadic.

It’s good to know that these GC/etc. solutions are even used by the big languages..

Yeah this is why the syntax is customizable.. maybe it’s not optimal.

The example I gave was strange and I’ll have to change it. Not sure what I was trying to show there. The basic syntax is just:

for counter in <1, 5> print(counter)

backfor counter in <1, 5> print(counter)

It’s not overloaded because ‘for’ is basically a macro, expanding to ‘iterate, increment counter, break on counter > 5’ where ‘>’ is hard-coded. If ‘for’ was a fundamental operator then yes, there would be a step option and it would be factored into the exit condition.

You’ve got me thinking, there’s probably a way to overload it even as a macro.. hmmm…

I know, I was dismayed to find out that there’s even another scripting language called Cicada.

The name came when I was living in Seattle and missed the sounds of east coast summer..

There’s no multithreading capability built into Cicada. So a given instance of the interpreter only has a single concurrent state, and all C callbacks share memory with that global state. Multithreading would require a C-based thread manager.

Good questions! The short answer to the first is that the language is interpreted, not compiled, so optimizations are moot.

Aliases are strongly-typed which helps avoid some issues. Memory mods come with the territory —- if ‘a’ and ‘b’ point to the same array and ‘a’ resizes that array, then the array behind ‘b’ gets resized too. The one tricky situation is when ‘a’ and ‘b’ each reference range of elements, not the whole array, because a resize of ‘a’ would force a resize of the width of ‘b’. Resizing in this case is usually not allowed.

Garbage collection is indeed done (poorly) by reference counting, and also (very well) by a tracing function that Cicada’s command line script runs after every command.

You’re exactly right, the library is lean because I figure it’s easy to add a C function interface for any capability you want. There’s a bit of personal bias as to what I did include - for example all the basic calculator functions are in, right down to atan(), but no regex. Basic IO (save, load, input, print) is included.

Type marshaling — the Cicada int/float types are defined by cicada.h and can be changed! You just have to use the same types in your C code.

When you run Cicada you pass a list of C functions paired with their Cicada names: { “myCfunction”, &myCfunction }. Then, in Cicada, $myCfunction() runs the callback.

Thanks for the questions! This is exactly the sort of feedback that helps me learn more about the landscape..

Thanks! I’m unfamiliar with Janet but I’ve looked into the others you listed.

One personal preference is that a scripting syntax be somewhat ‘C-like’.. which might recommend a straight C embedded implementation although I think that makes some compromises.

Should have replied directly —- thanks! That’s a great list..

To be more specific (see my general comment), I’ve used the language in two open-source projects: 1) a chromosome conformation reconstruction tool, and 2) a fast neural network generator (back end). Re Project 2: I’m also planning to embed the language into results webpages served from the NN generator website.

Thanks for the references! Writing a language was almost an accident — I worked on a neural networks tool with a scripted interface back around 2000, before I’d ever heard of some of these other languages.. and I’ve been using/updating it ever since.

Beyond NNs, my use case to embed fast C calculations into the language to make scientific programming easier. But the inspiration was less about the use case and more about certain programming innovations which I’m sure are elsewhere but I’m not sure where — like aliases, callable function arguments, generalized inheritance, etc.

That’s a great list — most of those languages I’ve honestly never heard of..

As a newbie I really enjoyed your explanation of the synthesis process and why everybody should Fourier-sum phases rather than amplitudes.