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Re:VRchat bans mods, embraces EAC on Tuesday July 26, 2022 @05:30PM (#32244322)
The slice of humanity on VRChat is significantly more neurotic and hypersexual than the average Gen-Xer ranting on Facebook. They’re also more OK being inappropriate around young children, the other large VRChat constituency. It’s worse in VRChat than in any other VR game or online multiplayer experience I’ve had (and I’ve had a lot) except maybe Second Life.

The Facebook crowd would be just as bad in VR, probably, but VRChat is its own sort of hive of scum and villainy.

Re:VRchat bans mods, embraces EAC on Tuesday July 26, 2022 @02:34AM (#32235090)
When the service is full of kids anyway and the operator knows this, the situation changes. Also many adults (me, other users I’ve spoken with in-game) would like the option to filter NSFW content, as on practically every other large Internet platform.
Re:VRchat bans mods, embraces EAC on Tuesday July 26, 2022 @02:24AM (#32235014)
The same kids whose parents bought them an XBox or PlayStation. The Quest 2 is cheaper than both at $300. It’s standalone so you don’t need a PC. There’s been a sea change in the VR player base since the first Quest came out:

https://youtu.be/wbB807o-Fjs

Re:VRchat bans mods, embraces EAC on Tuesday July 26, 2022 @12:51AM (#32234371)
As with all DRM, it will pose no real obstacle to abusers will inconveniencing regular users (in this case, people using quality-of-life mods).
Re:VRchat bans mods, embraces EAC on Tuesday July 26, 2022 @12:25AM (#32234228)
I submit that the problem is actually bigger than you think, there are in fact more malicious mods than you realize, and drastic measures should be taken. I don’t think EAC is the right fix and I think it’s being made for the wrong reasons.

Most regular users don’t use or know about anti-crasher mods, and in any case the problems are inherent to the game’s design. Fixing those problems should be VRChat’s main goal.

The OP is about VRChat mods. I started talking about malicious mods and segued into bad stuff on VRChat in general, which I think is both relevant and interesting to HN users. If you don’t like it, I encourage you to help remove the bad stuff.

Re:VRchat bans mods, embraces EAC on Monday July 25, 2022 @11:58PM (#32234096)
It sounds like you’re a VRChat mod user who is unhappy with the new update, and thinks I am defending it based on the bad mods it will ban. This is not what is happening. I am ambivalent to negative on EAC. The purpose of my comment above is to raise awareness of the bad parts of VRChat generally, especially to HN users unfamiliar with this game and its risks for younger users. I think EAC is a bandaid that will negatively impact good users and have minimal impact on bad actors.

Many mods are used for malicious purposes. This doesn’t mean ‘ban mods,’ it means patch the holes bad mods exploit.

Re:VRchat bans mods, embraces EAC on Monday July 25, 2022 @11:55PM (#32234074)
Yes, to an extent it’s more of the same, just more immersive. If you’re an adult, the bad stuff is white noise for the most part.

If you’re a kid, it can be scary and potentially dangerous. The game is advertised with cartoon characters and a child-friendly aesthetic, far from what you actually find in public worlds. It’s easy for bad actors to hone in on kids based on voice, then corner them and do bad things. I’ve spoken to kids who were approached and “flashed” by much older users with explicit, ejaculating sexual avatars. It’s unpleasant and disorienting. Not to mention adults who zero in on kids, drop a portal to show them a “cool world” and then get them one-on-one in essentially an unsupervised VoIP call. This platform is practically designed to trap and abuse kids.

And yes, kids technically aren’t allowed to play VRChat or even go online using the Quest per Terms of Service. Enforcement is impossible, not that anyone tries, so kids are everywhere.

Re:VRchat bans mods, embraces EAC on Monday July 25, 2022 @11:41PM (#32233994)
The comment I replied to got flagged so my reply to it’s hidden too, but here are some details on the crashers, malicious mods for sale, and DDoS groups I mention above:

——

Crashers, many of which are Quest-specific, some of which are world or avatar-based and sone of which are built into mods, are common and extensively documented:

https://youtu.be/tm0qVevUMJU

https://youtu.be/NW1XvhCzlts

https://youtu.be/Eeuf3EGgYJI

I know about the DDoS services because I followed the Discord links in the profiles of users affiliated with them, some of whom crashed me for sport in public worlds. I pulled their usernames from the logs and looked up their public game profiles. For example (sketchy link warning, may be NSFW):

https://photon-gods.cc

http://svh.natt.pw/

IP addresses of other users could previously be extracted due to VRChat’s old P2P netcode. This is a security design flaw in an MMO with a community as toxic as VRChat’s. This has now been mostly but not entirely patched (if you join a world with an older type of video player, any user in-world can submit a video URL that your client will directly fetch).

——

To be clear, banning mods and enforcing EAC won’t fix these problems. Improving moderation and patching the holes exploited by malicious mods will fix the problem.

Re:VRchat bans mods, embraces EAC on Monday July 25, 2022 @11:34PM (#32233954)
I will gladly explain, I’ve spent hundreds of hours in VRChat and many hours digging into its darker side.

Crashers, many of which are Quest-specific, some of which are world or avatar-based and sone of which are built into mods, are common and extensively documented:

https://youtu.be/tm0qVevUMJU

https://youtu.be/NW1XvhCzlts

https://youtu.be/Eeuf3EGgYJI

I know about the DDoS services because I followed the Discord links in the profiles of users affiliated with them, some of whom crashed me for sport in public worlds. I pulled their usernames from the logs and looked up their public game profiles. For example (sketchy link warning, may be NSFW):

https://photon-gods.cc

http://svh.natt.pw/

IP addresses of other users could previously be extracted due to VRChat’s old P2P netcode. This is a security design flaw in an MMO with a community as toxic as VRChat’s. This has now been mostly but not entirely patched (if you join a world with an older type of video player, any user in-world can submit a video URL that your client will directly fetch).

I’m curious why you so energetically promote a false, rosier view of the situation.

Re:VRchat bans mods, embraces EAC on Monday July 25, 2022 @11:23PM (#32233894)
It doesn’t. I’m talking about a problem that’s inherent to the base game, and unfortunately not widely known.
Re:VRchat bans mods, embraces EAC on Monday July 25, 2022 @11:11PM (#32233829)
Tangentially to EAC, I've commented downthread several times on the danger to children and lax moderation of VRChat, but just to drive the point home, search "VRCat" on PornHub and you'll find all sorts of videos created in-game. These are avatars on VRChat's servers that users can and sometimes do use in public worlds. Officially VRChat's Terms of Service prohibits NSFW content. In practice, the game's loading screen tips say "no NSFW content in public worlds" and staff know exactly what's going on.

There is no NSFW tagging system, no content filtering for uploaded avatars, no effective means to permanently ban abusive users, and extremely lax in-game moderation. There are tons of sexualized, fully nude, and fully-functional avatars all over the place. Spend a couple hours in the main public worlds and you're almost guaranteed to see some. Remember, this game is absolutely full of children and pre-teens, and the kind of adults who choose to hang out around them. The game is free on the Meta Quest store with zero age restrictions.

Re:VRchat bans mods, embraces EAC on Monday July 25, 2022 @11:05PM (#32233799)
>You have no idea what you're talking about regarding mods. Like, at all.

Enlighten us!

Re:VRchat bans mods, embraces EAC on Monday July 25, 2022 @11:04PM (#32233792)
A certain type of community is drawn to a particular kind of platform.

In this case, an exploitable platform filled with children and near-zero moderation of sexualized content. As you know, VRChat doesn't even have an NSFW tagging system or option for users to filter such content out (without hiding all custom avatars, i.e. disabling VRChat's core functionality).

Re:VRchat bans mods, embraces EAC on Monday July 25, 2022 @10:45PM (#32233671)
You're sort of proving my point here.

"Second Life Is Plagued by Security Flaws, Ex-Employee Says; A former infosec director at Linden Lab alleges the company mishandled user data and turned a blind eye to simulated sex acts involving children."

https://www.wired.com/story/second-life-plagued-security-fla...

This community is now deeply imbedded in VRChat, another platform full of unsupervised children and security flaws.

Re:VRchat bans mods, embraces EAC on Monday July 25, 2022 @10:38PM (#32233628)
Some good memes about this on the VRChat subreddit, which was locked to new submission fifteen minutes ago in response to the overwhelming community outrage:

https://www.reddit.com/r/VRchat/

Re:VRchat bans mods, embraces EAC on Monday July 25, 2022 @10:30PM (#32233579)
VRChat doesn't reflect human nature overall, just those who fail adapt to the mainstream and hide out online 24/7. High overlap with Second Life, 4channers, and heavy Discord users, less of an overlap with people who play competitive games or contribute to society.
Re:VRchat bans mods, embraces EAC on Monday July 25, 2022 @10:17PM (#32233498)
That was five years ago. Now it's about screaming kids, adults grooming children, and sitting in front of mirrors in hypersexualized avatars.
Re:VRchat bans mods, embraces EAC on Monday July 25, 2022 @10:16PM (#32233490)
VRChat is jam-packed with malicious users who use modded clients or run Wireshark to dox and harass people using their IP. Imagine an adult telling a little kid in VR, "I know where you live, it's in X city" and then social-engineering their way to even worse places. They did a big refactor a few years ago to remove all/most P2P networking due to the DDoS and harassment problems. The VRChat community is incredibly toxic.
Re:VRchat bans mods, embraces EAC on Monday July 25, 2022 @10:14PM (#32233479)
The ugly parts have taken over. The Second Life users have moved in and now dominate many spaces, along with tons of kids ("Questies") and the usual always-online contingent of furries, extremists of various sorts, and adults being creepy around young kids.

There's still cool stuff there and unique and positive interactions to be had, but it's a slog.

Re:VRchat bans mods, embraces EAC on Monday July 25, 2022 @10:05PM (#32233421)
As a frequent VRChat user: the problem is entirely sloppy API design, poor to nonexistent moderation, a security team detached from reality (the team lead posts often in the VRChat Discord, or used to), and the fundamental problem of running a no-stakes social game where getting banned and losing your account is no obstacle to further bad behavior. Getting banned from WoW means you lose your time investment in level 60 and raid gear; getting banned from VRChat means you make a new dummy email and log right back in. Any VR game with real time investment doesn't have this problem.
Re:VRchat bans mods, embraces EAC on Monday July 25, 2022 @10:02PM (#32233408)
>is there a vibrant community of mods?

The most popular client mod is emmVRC:

https://www.emmvrc.com/

Other mods exist, mostly for nefarious purposes like crashing other users who're on Quest or the vanilla client. There's a whole mini black market of "hacks", i.e. client mods built on abusing the VRChat API, as well as some clients which tie into DDoS services that will target specific users in-game if you manage to obtain their IP address via exploit or social engineering. These malicious clients are generally advertised and sold via Discord links in users' profiles. PayPal or CashApp are used to facilitate the transactions.

The game's moderation is essentially nonexistent. Anyone who does get banned for using mods, or sexually grooming underage users, or running around in nude avatars with giant ejaculating phalluses, or all of the above at the same time, can make a new account in a split second. They don't ban IPs, and only recently blocked most well-known VPN IP ranges.

I've got a folder full of OBS screen captures of ~a hundred inicidents like those just described. They don't tell you if reporting a user results in moderation, to "prevent bullying," but I can tell you that users I recorded months ago running modded clients and sexually grooming children (adult with NSFW avatar explaining earnestly why incest is OK to preteens) still log in daily. I stopped filing moderation tickets when I realized nothing was happening. It's an absolute shitshow, a media exposé waiting to happen. I haven't even mentioned the staff-curated default avatar worlds with Disney and Viacom copyrighted characters.

Re:VRchat bans mods, embraces EAC on Monday July 25, 2022 @09:49PM (#32233335)
One of their competitors, Neos, already has some kind of built-in cryptocurrency:

https://neos.com/#neos-credits

The selling point of Neos used to be that it allowed 10-point full-body tracking (as opposed to 6-point) while VRChat did not, but VRChat recently added that functionality.