News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Verge Genomics (YC S15) Wants to Cure Neurodegenerative D... by w1ntermute on Tuesday July 21, 2015 @04:14PM (#9925424)
The breathless tone of this TechCrunch article reminds me of this commentary on Atomwise (also a YC biotech): http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/2015/03/26/tone_it_down...

In my opinion, YC has no idea what they're doing in biotech. Here's a much more credible neuro disease startup that was recently launched: http://www.forbes.com/sites/matthewherper/2015/05/14/former-...

I'm sure Alice and Jason are very intelligent and motivated, but the smart money's on Marc Tessier-Lavigne any day of the week. The industry dynamics of biotech are totally different - the small and nimble upstart with unconventional thinking rarely wins.

Re:Verge Genomics (YC S15) Wants to Cure Neurodegenerative D... by timr on Tuesday July 21, 2015 @04:56PM (#9925738)
The biotech companies in the last batch were mostly reasonable, if a little too breathlessly overhyped by their press launches. Say what you will about that Atomwise article, they're playing in a well-known space. There are existing companies (generally small) selling exactly that sort of service to drug companies. It's an open question whether or not their particular approach is sufficiently better to give them a sustainable advantage in what is an extremely competitive, low-budget space (relative to med-tech), but the business model is plausible.

Most of the biotech companies coming out of YC are what I'd characterize as total fliers -- unlike the company highlighted by the Forbes article, these startups aren't being founded by a collection of gray-haired biotech executives with a collective 200 years of research experience in a single disease. And that's fine. One of the biggest problems in biotech right now is that everything is too stodgy and conservative. When I got out of grad school, there was no way of starting a biotech company without putting in 20+ years in academia or at drug company. You wouldn't get funding.

If funding a few grad students for oddball biotech startups leads to a single success, it has the possibility of really opening up the field. And in the worst case, very little money will be lost. I think it's a good thing. If nothing else, maybe it'll turn the attention of smart, ambitious people to something more important and meaningful than photo-sharing apps and YuppieFoodDelivery.com v87.0.

Let a million flowers bloom...as long as they all don't try to crowd into San Francisco, that is.

Re:Verge Genomics (YC S15) Wants to Cure Neurodegenerative D... by bbgm on Tuesday July 21, 2015 @06:18PM (#9926269)
The thing is this kind of idea is not new. Finding new targets is hard science that needs a ton of experiments to validate that your theoretical models even work. For now this is low risk and no cost to the pharma partner, but it's a not a new model and in my experience not one that works.
Re:Verge Genomics (YC S15) Wants to Cure Neurodegenerative D... by timr on Tuesday July 21, 2015 @06:26PM (#9926308)
"The thing is this kind of idea is not new."

...most startup companies aren't doing anything new. How many different food-delivery services has YC funded? Photo-sharing services? Video startups? AirBnB wasn't anything new in 2007, either. Dropbox was criticized because everyone knew that file sharing had been done before.

This goes back to what I was saying about biotech being stodgy: the one thing the software industry has going for it is that it's willing to fling seed capital at re-tread ideas. If success is mostly about being in the right place for luck to occur, then the secret is putting enough companies in a place to experience luck. I think that's basically what YC does.

So-called "biotech investors" tend to want to wait around for commercially ready tech to just fall out of academic labs, so that they can avoid putting any investment at all into R&D. There are probably a lot of inexperienced teams that could make a business in biotech if only they had access to cash.

Re:Verge Genomics (YC S15) Wants to Cure Neurodegenerative D... by w1ntermute on Tuesday July 21, 2015 @06:43PM (#9926400)
> ...most startup companies aren't doing anything new. How many different food-delivery services has YC funded? Photo-sharing services? Video startups? AirBnB wasn't anything new in 2007, either. Dropbox was criticized because everyone knew that file sharing had been done before.

There's a fundamental difference between trying something again where the customers weren't receptive and trying something again where the product couldn't be created. Customer reception can change over time, often quite rapidly and drastically, making previously failed business models successful (ex: Webvan -> Instacart). But nature doesn't just change (at least not over short timescales).

Moreover, as cge explains elsewhere in this thread, you cannot really iterate in biotech:

> Good ideas in software might not catch on, but good ideas in science more often than not turn out to be entirely wrong. Do a closed beta of your software, too, and while your users might not end up liking the software much, it's very unlikely that it's just going to fundamentally fail to work at all. Clinical trials can often end up that way.

Contrast this to business model-based innovation in tech, where a slight tweak can be the difference between a unicorn and a dud.

Re:Verge Genomics (YC S15) Wants to Cure Neurodegenerative D... by chenja on Tuesday July 21, 2015 @08:08PM (#9926819)
We definitely didn't invent systems biology for drug discovery. But Google didn't invent search engines either, I think that we have a fresh and novel approach which is really differentiated by the details.

Another thing I think is different about the industries is that while there are tons of food delivery and photo-sharing startups, there's no really effective/disease modifying treatments for common diseases such as Alzheimer's disease, frontotemporal dementia, ALS, etc, so I think there's plenty of space for any number of new approaches to be tested in the field. I feel it's more worthwhile than pumping billions more into failed antibodies against beta amyloid, as seems to be the trend nowadays.

Re:Verge Genomics (YC S15) Wants to Cure Neurodegenerative D... by w1ntermute on Tuesday July 21, 2015 @09:21PM (#9927137)
> We definitely didn't invent systems biology for drug discovery. But Google didn't invent search engines either

This is a flawed analogy, because Google's success is largely attributable to business model innovation (AdSense), rather than any core technology, such as PageRank. After all, Robin Li published Rankdex two years before Brin/Page published PageRank, and we all know how trivial it is to engineer around software patents.

> Another thing I think is different about the industries is that while there are tons of food delivery and photo-sharing startups, there's no really effective/disease modifying treatments for common diseases such as Alzheimer's disease, frontotemporal dementia, ALS, etc, so I think there's plenty of space for any number of new approaches to be tested in the field.

That's because the bottleneck in tech is (a) identifying problems actually worth solving and (b) a business model that will lead to a sustainable company. Achieving success means creating a business and iterating to a position of dominance. There was never any question regarding the technical feasibility of Airbnb's site or Uber's app. It was (and still is) all about things like whether Airbnb could create trust between hosts and guests, and whether Uber could navigate the regulatory landscape.

The biomedical space could not be more different. Everyone with a half a clue knows that neurodegenerative diseases are a problem. Nobody who knows the industry is questioning that tons of customers for your (potential) product exist, or that they'll pay boatloads of money for a treatment or cure. The gigantic elephant in the room is whether your product works. Nothing else really matters.

Re:Verge Genomics (YC S15) Wants to Cure Neurodegenerative D... by timr on Tuesday July 21, 2015 @07:32PM (#9926659)
The difference between success and failure in biotech lead generation is finding a good lead.

That's something that is strongly influenced by luck. I can point to famous researchers who have made entire careers out of this sort of momentary serendipity, actually.

Re:Verge Genomics (YC S15) Wants to Cure Neurodegenerative D... by w1ntermute on Tuesday July 21, 2015 @08:38PM (#9926950)
Yes, that is exactly my point. You cannot iterate your way to a serendipitous discovery.
Re:Verge Genomics (YC S15) Wants to Cure Neurodegenerative D... by timr on Wednesday July 22, 2015 @03:31AM (#9928179)
Actually, that's the only way you get to a serendipitous discovery: you make lots of shots, and some of them go in the goal.
Re:Verge Genomics (YC S15) Wants to Cure Neurodegenerative D... by w1ntermute on Wednesday July 22, 2015 @09:42AM (#9929565)
> you make lots of shots, and some of them go in the goal

That's not iteration, that's banging your head against a wall and praying for a miracle. Iteration implies methodically and continuously moving towards an optimal solution, not heading back to the RNG after each failed attempt.

Re:Verge Genomics (YC S15) Wants to Cure Neurodegenerative D... by bbgm on Tuesday July 21, 2015 @06:49PM (#9926426)
Biotech startups with a computational method of target discovery that is "different from the norm at Big Pharma" have been around at least since the late 90s. The problem is targets are cheap. Validating those targets is expensive and is the rate limiting step. I have no problems with these companies existing. They should and can tackle some hard problems and develop algorithms and methods that are difficult to pursue in Big Pharma. The problem is that too many are presented as silver bullets that will magically cure xyz, and that's just false.
Re:Verge Genomics (YC S15) Wants to Cure Neurodegenerative D... by timr on Tuesday July 21, 2015 @07:31PM (#9926651)
Yeah, I know what you're saying here, and I don't disagree. I only disagree with the comment that they aren't "doing something new". It's sufficient to do some old thing better in some way that matters to existing customers -- and that's an implementation detail that will never come out of a TechCrunch press release.
Re:Verge Genomics (YC S15) Wants to Cure Neurodegenerative D... by chenja on Tuesday July 21, 2015 @07:34PM (#9926668)
We have been actively validating targets, and in fact Alice's PhD work was centered on performing the in vitro and in vivo validation experiments for computational drug leads. We aren't asking for people to believe in magic, and ultimately we hope that our preclinical experiments will reveal whether or not we have something.
Re:Verge Genomics (YC S15) Wants to Cure Neurodegenerative D... by eliben on Tuesday July 21, 2015 @04:39PM (#9925618)
Whether YC has an idea on biotech or not, I'm very happy to see more startups in this domain. I think we've had enough social networks and mobile app frameworks. Seriously cool that YC starts backing companies that want to bring real change to the world.
Re:Verge Genomics (YC S15) Wants to Cure Neurodegenerative D... by cge on Tuesday July 21, 2015 @04:32PM (#9925570)
This is what happens with media coverage of pharmaceutical development, and often science in general. Journalists want stories that people can relate to, that don't have the uncertainty that is inherent in science, and that will grab the public's attention. The ridiculous tone is often something that horrifies the people being reported on, but seems very difficult to escape.

It doesn't help that here, I think, we're seeing a community and media largely centered around software development trying to deal with a field that is far, far riskier, and has far less certainty at every step. Good ideas in software might not catch on, but good ideas in science more often than not turn out to be entirely wrong. Do a closed beta of your software, too, and while your users might not end up liking the software much, it's very unlikely that it's just going to fundamentally fail to work at all. Clinical trials can often end up that way.

Re:Verge Genomics (YC S15) Wants to Cure Neurodegenerative D... by sethbannon on Tuesday July 21, 2015 @04:59PM (#9925774)
It's been the case in nearly every industry that the "small and nimble upstart" rarely wins. Until they do. Biotech the seems ripe for the same sort of nimble innovation we've seen in software and hardware over the last couple decades. Wrote a bit about this here: http://www.sethbannon.com/biotech-in-the-garage
Re:Verge Genomics (YC S15) Wants to Cure Neurodegenerative D... by w1ntermute on Tuesday July 21, 2015 @05:24PM (#9925918)
Your article employs the same sort of breathless rhetoric as TechCrunch:

> A smart software developer can build and launch a web or mobile app and get paying customers for under $2,000. The same will soon be true for biotechnology.

Moore's law is a unique phenomenon, and it most certainly does not apply in biotech.

Re:Verge Genomics (YC S15) Wants to Cure Neurodegenerative D... by sethbannon on Tuesday July 21, 2015 @05:31PM (#9925968)
It's true that Moore's law doesn't apply everywhere. In fact, some costs (like the costs of sequencing a human genome) are falling much faster than Moore's law would predict: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b7/DNA_Sequ...
Re:Verge Genomics (YC S15) Wants to Cure Neurodegenerative D... by w1ntermute on Tuesday July 21, 2015 @05:36PM (#9925994)
1. That graph completely omits the quality of the sequence data being generated (hint: it's pretty terrible).

2. Hyping up cheaper sequencing the way you are is nothing more than what Sydney Brenner referred to as "low-input, high-throughput, no-output biology" (video source: http://thesciencenetwork.org/programs/reading-the-human-geno...). Also see: http://wavefunction.fieldofscience.com/2015/03/cancer-genomi...

3. Here's a more useful Moore's law derivative that's seen in the life sciences: http://www.nature.com/nrd/journal/v11/n3/fig_tab/nrd3681_F1....

Re:Verge Genomics (YC S15) Wants to Cure Neurodegenerative D... by chenja on Tuesday July 21, 2015 @07:19PM (#9926607)
While cheaper sequencing hasn't really produced much in the way of new treatments (yet), I disagree that it hasn't been productive or that sequence data is of low accuracy. For example, it is striking to see how relatively little was known about Mendelian disease genes before 1990 (see https://www.genome.gov/Multimedia/Slides/GSPFuture2014/04_Mc..., slide 6, as an example for retinal diseases). I think one of the most frustrating things now is that the price of sequencing isn't continuing to decrease.

You bring up another good point about "Eroom's Law" in which pharma productivity is actually decreasing, and that article was actually one of the things that got us interested in trying to do something new. What we are trying to do is to help reverse that trend by doing something different than what large pharma companies are already working on - if we keep doing the same thing despite ever-decreasing productivity, then I don't see how we can expect the trend to change.

Re:Verge Genomics (YC S15) Wants to Cure Neurodegenerative D... by timr on Tuesday July 21, 2015 @05:53PM (#9926124)
Wow. That last chart is really damning. It goes a long way to explaining why biotech has been such a moribund area of investment.

You can sequence as fast and as cheaply as you like, but the big-O on biological research is not our ability to generate DNA sequences.

Re:Verge Genomics (YC S15) Wants to Cure Neurodegenerative D... by epistasis on Tuesday July 21, 2015 @04:51PM (#9925714)
Mathew Herper's hype is more subtle than Tech Crunch's but it's hype nonetheless. He plays his favorites just like Tech Crunch. At least he's not as unseemly as Tech Crunch though.