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Re:Behind Germany’s refusal to grant Greece debt relief by igravious on Saturday July 11, 2015 @09:18PM (#9872226)
He is undoubtedly sincere.

I'm really sick of the people who come onto this forum (not talking about you, look elsewhere in these threads) and castigate the Greeks for being deadbeats. If they keep repeating this narrative when people have pointed out again and again that the €zone has structural flaws then there is no point in reasoning any more with them and you have to ignore them because they only hear the little voices in their heads.

You can't lay it out much clearer than Yanis Varoufakis does here -- "The euro is a hybrid of a fixed exchange-rate regime, like the 1980s ERM, or the 1930s gold standard, and a state currency. The former relies on the fear of expulsion to hold together, while state money involves mechanisms for recycling surpluses between member states (for instance, a federal budget, common bonds). The eurozone falls between these stools – it is more than an exchange-rate regime and less than a state."

When you get an unequal club, guess what! someone is going to be the weakest link. It is _inevitable_. If it wasn't Greece, it would have been someone else. Ok, you could make the argument that Greece was particularly lax in how it handled its own finances as part of the club but that (1) does not mean they should be punished with nearly a decade of unremitting poverty (2) not all the Greeks did this so it is _collective_ punishment (3) the €zone needs structural[§] adjustment and (4) we shouldn't keep socialising private debt, there _should_ be some risk to merit the interest charged.

We really need to start listening to what the Greeks are telling us. If the €zone starts unravelling things could get very nasty very quickly. I'm not joking.

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[§] Yanis Varoufakis even touches on this, again explicitly -- "Europe did not know how to respond to the financial crisis. Should it prepare for an expulsion (Grexit) or a federation?"

Re:Behind Germany’s refusal to grant Greece debt relief by icelancer on Saturday July 11, 2015 @09:30PM (#9872258)
>We really need to start listening to what the Greeks are telling us. If the €zone starts unravelling things could get very nasty very quickly. I'm not joking.

These were all concerns brought up well before the Euro was even instituted, much less expanded to semi-broke nations like Greece. The EU doesn't seem particularly interested in admitting that there are massive differences culturally and fiscally between the countries and that these differences mean that a unified currency with no monetary flexibility is doomed to fail.

EUR crushing USD early in its lifecycle after naysayers shouted down EUR didn't help things.

Re:Behind Germany’s refusal to grant Greece debt relief by igravious on Saturday July 11, 2015 @09:35PM (#9872274)
When these concerns were brought up initially I didn't heed them. I was blinded by the warm-fuzzies and the spirit of solidarity, I'll admit it! This is an issue I've had to totally change my thinking about. The UK were really smart on this one, as were the Danes and the Swedes. It's not too late to make things better but it's a huge ship to turn around and these things have a way of systemically operating according to their own logic eventually and resisting control. The only saving grace of the EUR is that other places in the world have their own special problems but that's no consolation and only a pig (sorry pigs!) would think like that.
Re:Behind Germany’s refusal to grant Greece debt relief by anabis on Saturday July 11, 2015 @10:00PM (#9872334)
My opinions is that since Greece chased out the auditors, its Greece that rejected the federation. If you are asking for money, but refuse oversight, why would anyone go along?
Re:Behind Germany’s refusal to grant Greece debt relief by coldtea on Sunday July 12, 2015 @12:18AM (#9872568)
First, they never chased out anyone.

Second, they have been extremely compliant for 5 years with dire consequences in a failed "recipe" that even the IMF and German economists agree has been punitive and ill designed.

Re:Behind Germany’s refusal to grant Greece debt relief by anabis on Sunday July 12, 2015 @01:01AM (#9872615)
> First, they never chased out anyone.

It was their campaign promise and they kept it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/31/business/international/gre...

Re:Behind Germany’s refusal to grant Greece debt relief by coldtea on Sunday July 12, 2015 @08:24AM (#9873262)
Nope, RTFA. That concerned the previous program which was ending -- and everyone, from most US and EU economists to the IMF had declared ill concived and bad for Greece AND the EU.

What they asked for was a new program -- the one which has been the focus of negotiations for months, and that would entail new auditors and checks.