Code Specialists Oppose U.S. and British Access to Encrypted Communication

Re:Code Specialists Oppose U.S. and British Access to Encryp... by Crito on Tuesday July 07, 2015 @10:52AM (#9845795)

A gun ban would not work in America, which is why he brought it up. The American public is already armed, really likes being armed, for the most part is not registered as being armed, actually truly believes that being disarmed is a prelude to genocide, and openly admit that they would use their arms against anyone who tried to take them.

Remember what happened when the Federal government tried to get some farmer to pay for the grazing land he was using? People several states away showed up with rifles, and they had no skin in the matter. If you tried to take their rifles, they (and many others) would try their best to kill you.

If America were full of Europeans, perhaps it would work. It isn't, so any notion of gun banning in the US is nothing more than wishful thinking at best.

[ Parent | on HN ]

Re:Code Specialists Oppose U.S. and British Access to Encryp... by joshuapants on Tuesday July 07, 2015 @11:02AM (#9845864)

The other question is a matter of scales. Mass shootings are tragic, but vanishingly rare. If you propose to ban or strictly control guns specifically in reaction to mass shootings, you haven't weighed the costs and benefits of doing so.

[ Parent | on HN ]

Re:Code Specialists Oppose U.S. and British Access to Encryp... by 15charlimit on Tuesday July 07, 2015 @12:21PM (#9846398)

>actually truly believes that being disarmed is a prelude to genocide

Try, if you can, to provide an example of genocide that wasn't preceded by mass-disarmament of the targeted populace (assuming they hadn't been previously disarmed).

[ Parent | on HN ]

Re:Code Specialists Oppose U.S. and British Access to Encryp... by pjc50 on Tuesday July 07, 2015 @11:21AM (#9845984)

People [from] several states away showed up with rifles

What jail sentences for terrorism offences did they recieve? Or were they shot by police? Or were they white people?

(In other countries, you can't just show up to political protests with weapons!)

[ Parent | on HN ]

Re:Code Specialists Oppose U.S. and British Access to Encryp... by freehunter on Tuesday July 07, 2015 @12:00PM (#9846237)

Other countries don't have that right enshrined in their Constitution. America does, so of course they wouldn't be hit with terrorism charges, Race doesn't matter here. You can show up to the airport with a gun, and as long as you don't threaten anyone or try to get through the security checkpoint, you won't be arrested. If you are arrested, the arrest will be thrown out of the court. Americans have the explicit right to carry guns in a not-overtly-threatening manner in a great many places that might surprise you.

[ Parent | on HN ]

Re:Code Specialists Oppose U.S. and British Access to Encryp... by pjc50 on Tuesday July 07, 2015 @12:07PM (#9846290)

My oblique point was that "not-overtly-threatening manner" is very subject to racist interpretation. There have been a number of well publicised incidents of black Americans being shot dead due to being wrongly percieved as threats, such as http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/cops-shoot-and-kill-man-holding-t...

[ Parent | on HN ]

Re:Code Specialists Oppose U.S. and British Access to Encryp... by Crito on Tuesday July 07, 2015 @11:25AM (#9846007)

> "What jail sentences for terrorism offences did they recieve? Or were they shot by police?"

I think you know the answer to that. The answer is kind of my point, isn't it?

These people are dangerous to push around because they have guns. They realize this. They are not going to relinquish that leverage without a fight.

[ Parent | on HN ]

Re:Code Specialists Oppose U.S. and British Access to Encryp... by pjc50 on Tuesday July 07, 2015 @12:11PM (#9846328)

These people are dangerous to push around because they have guns

This works until a politically opposing group shows up with guns as well.

Would you argue that the group most subject to being pushed around by the state in the US - young black men - would be better off arming themselves?

[ Parent | on HN ]

Re:Code Specialists Oppose U.S. and British Access to Encryp... by Crito on Tuesday July 07, 2015 @06:59PM (#9848695)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mulford_Act

[ Parent | on HN ]

Re:Code Specialists Oppose U.S. and British Access to Encryp... by api on Tuesday July 07, 2015 @11:00AM (#9845853)

This actually adds a lot of nuance to the argument -- one of the reasons you can't just legislate anything is that you must take into account not only technical limitations and requirements but also the characteristics of the local population. Different cultures will respond differently to different laws.

[ Parent | on HN ]

Re:Code Specialists Oppose U.S. and British Access to Encryp... by istvan__ on Tuesday July 07, 2015 @11:04AM (#9845879)

Any proof? There are several countries in Europe with relaxed gun laws and we don't have too many shootings. While in Germany ("Gun legislation in Germany is considered among the strictest gun control in the world") we have seen some school shootings...

Could you back your statement with any data?

THe only thing I got proves otherwise:

http://41.media.tumblr.com/4b2648afd425728c741b77cef3ed793e/...

[ Parent | on HN ]

Re:Code Specialists Oppose U.S. and British Access to Encryp... by _delirium on Tuesday July 07, 2015 @11:44AM (#9846126)

I wonder what that would look like if you looked specifically at handgun ownership rather than overall gun ownership. In the Nordic countries (which overall have quite a lot of guns) the general assumption behind regulation has been that handguns are a problem but rifles are less of one, especially rifles in rural areas. It's a bit puzzling to me that the American debate has focused on "assault rifles", which statistically seem much less of a problem than handguns.

As an example of large differences in ratio, Finland has a fairly high gun ownership rate of around 55 guns per 100 people, but only 5 handguns per 100 people. And while it's common to have a rifle in your truck in rural areas, you can't legally carry around a handgun in the middle of Helsinki.

[ Parent | on HN ]

Re:Code Specialists Oppose U.S. and British Access to Encryp... by istvan__ on Tuesday July 07, 2015 @01:30PM (#9846819)

"A gun ban is a reasonable and effective way of reducing the number of school shootings"

I just wanted to debunk this myth. As you pointed out there is more to it.

I was thinking a lot and I think any sort of gun ownership should be tied to employment and mental status. This is the easiest to filter out people like most of the mass shooters and criminal elements. I am not sure what is required in Finland to own a gun (any kind) but I am sure that it is not like here (at least in some states). There is an entire industry built on buying guns in states that anybody can get one and smuggling it to states with more strict laws. This just helps the criminals to get armed while exposing civilians to violence.

In Switzerland some of the ex-army people can keep they assault rifles and this drives down the chance of violent crime because the criminals know that there can be a trained soldier in the next house who won't hesitate to use the weapon. I try to dig up the study about this.

Please don't use downvoting for disagreement it is not supposed to be used for that. If you disagree reply and show the points where you disagree with me.

[ Parent | on HN ]

Re:Code Specialists Oppose U.S. and British Access to Encryp... by Sideloader on Tuesday July 07, 2015 @11:37PM (#9849679)

Downvoting a post because you don't agree with the argument is silly. I wonder how many downvoters think they are pro-free speech even as they demonstrate their hypocrisy.

[ Parent | on HN ]

Re:Code Specialists Oppose U.S. and British Access to Encryp... by viraptor on Tuesday July 07, 2015 @02:10PM (#9847100)

This graph says pretty much: if you need a gun in a state with lowest ownership you only need to visit around 10 houses to find one. That's basically "if you want one, you know where to get one". I wouldn't expect the correlation to be very high here.

[ Parent | on HN ]

Re:Code Specialists Oppose U.S. and British Access to Encryp... by joshuapants on Tuesday July 07, 2015 @11:00AM (#9845845)

You might find this an interesting read: http://www.thepolemicist.net/2013/01/the-rifle-on-wall-left-...

In addition, I don't know of any European nations that have outright banned guns, so that point isn't entirely correct.

> Not sure why you brought guns into this argument other than it being a pet issue.

No, it's an entirely valid one and fits the discussion.

[ Parent | on HN ]

Re:Code Specialists Oppose U.S. and British Access to Encryp... by cloakandswagger on Tuesday July 07, 2015 @11:52AM (#9846187)

He brought it up because it's the perfect analogy. Guns are prolific in the United States and they are protected by their Constitution. Encryption is prolific everywhere and is also (arguably) protected.

Politicians want to ban/control both of them for their own misguided, naive reasons, and in both cases doing so is impossible.

[ Parent | on HN ]

Re:Code Specialists Oppose U.S. and British Access to Encryp... by saosebastiao on Tuesday July 07, 2015 @11:44AM (#9846124)

I don't know...if I were Swiss I could probably conclude that mandatory gun ownership is the way to fewer school shootings. But reality is always more complex than that, isn't it?

[ Parent | on HN ]

Re:Code Specialists Oppose U.S. and British Access to Encryp... by baby on Tuesday July 07, 2015 @05:41PM (#9848289)

It's not gonna be simple if you start comparing Swiss citizens with the US citizens.

[ Parent | on HN ]

Re:Code Specialists Oppose U.S. and British Access to Encryp... by arnarbi on Tuesday July 07, 2015 @02:24PM (#9847188)

European here, and I hate guns. But I would not confirm that statement without conclusive evidence.

[ Parent | on HN ]