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Re:Greece by Shivetya on Saturday July 04, 2015 @10:16PM (#9832290)
The EU was never to be a transfer union, this setup was required to get the large economic countries to accept the weaker countries being admitted. National pride would mean political suicide for any leaders who suggest sending money out in the form of welfare.

While I am quite willing to lambast the banks in the states for the mess they got into I am not so willing to do so with regards to their lending to Greece. Someone would have stepped forward regardless because state actors are supposed to function properly with fiscal restraint when its apparent their economy cannot sustain their spending.

The real fault here is the past and current Greek administrations which decided to pass the buck to the point we have a new government which is effectively trying to blackmail the EU.

The IMF is pulling back because they were overly generous giving the Greek government far more support that rules generally permitted. Under normal conditions the rule is 200% of a countries quota which is based on each countries contribution to the IMF with a 600% cumulative total. In 2010 Greece got a 3208% (three thousand two hundred an eight) percent infusion.

Greece has the highest military spending vs GDP of any NATO nation second to the US. What the IMF and EU lenders and such have done is force Greece to raise taxes to the point its near impossible to do business. Forcing many out of the legal economy if not out of Greece itself. This is the fault that can be assigned to IMF and others.

Basically the businesses and people of Greece are paying a tax load so high that profit and therefor growth is nearly impossible.

Re:Greece by crdoconnor on Sunday July 05, 2015 @02:37AM (#9832734)
>The EU was never to be a transfer union

Then there should never have been a single currency. This is a case of wanting to eat their cake and have it too.

>While I am quite willing to lambast the banks in the states for the mess they got into

Doesn't sound so much like you are, actually. Where is all the hate for Commerzbank for lending money to Greece and then shifting all the losses on to the German government?

>I am not so willing to do so with regards to their lending to Greece. Someone would have stepped forward regardless because state actors are supposed to function properly with fiscal restraint when its apparent their economy cannot sustain their spending.

Everybody is supposed to act with restraint when it becomes apparent that they cannot finance spending.

Nonetheless the Greek government that got Greece into this mess is long gone (and I don't hear you calling for their members to be imprisoned on charges of fraud and negligence).

>Basically the businesses and people of Greece are paying a tax load so high that profit and therefor growth is nearly impossible.

Businesses didn't get that bad a deal out of austerity. They got to cut their wage bill in half and their tax bill still hasn't really budged. So they're the first people you feel sorry for?

Re:Greece by Gibbon1 on Sunday July 05, 2015 @04:53AM (#9832966)
>The EU was never to be a transfer union, this setup was required to get the large economic countries to accept the weaker countries being admitted.

Not compensating economically weaker countries in a currency union is completely unjust and immoral. Weaker countries give up the ability to control exchange rates. And they have to deal with trading in stronger currency than they would if they were going it alone. This makes their exports relatively unattractive.

> The IMF is pulling back because they were overly generous giving the Greek government far more support that rules generally permitted.

I think the IMF is pulling back because they can't stomach this crap anymore.

> Greece has the highest military spending vs GDP of any NATO nation second to the US.

Right so French and German defense contractors bribed previous Greek politicians to buy weapons systems on credit. And the ECB etc are dead set that that part of the Greek budget continue as usual.

Right.

Re:Greece by dragandj on Sunday July 05, 2015 @08:23AM (#9833305)
> Right so French and German defense contractors bribed previous Greek politicians to buy weapons systems on credit. And the ECB etc are dead set that that part of the Greek budget continue as usual.

There are no "previous Greek politicians": Greece is a sovereign state that elects its own leadership. That sovereignity comes with responsibility, too. So, in the end, people should think more when voting, not blame others...

Re:Greece by visarga on Saturday July 04, 2015 @11:43PM (#9832421)
Lending money is always a transaction between two parties. Both should be responsible. The financial state of a country is easier to evaluate than that of a person, they shouldn't have faller for the tricks of Goldman Sachs.

> According to investigative reports that appeared in Der Spiegel, the New York Times, BBC, and Bloomberg News from 2010 through 2012, Blankfein, now Goldman Sachs CEO, Cohn, now President and COO, and Loudiadis, a Managing Director, all played a role in structuring complex derivative deals with Greece which accomplished two things: they allowed Greece to hide the true extent of its debt and they ended up almost doubling the amount of debt Greece owed under the dubious derivative deals.

source: http://wallstreetonparade.com/2015/06/goldman-sachs-doesnt-h...

So, EU and IMF didn't catch that, they lent money in a stupidly criminal way and now they want it back at any cost to Greece. They lent Greece money when Greece didn't need it, and now request it back when they are down.

Of course Greece bears the brunt of blame here, but collective punishment at the level of a country is cruel. There are lots of innocents paying now for the financial dealings of the older generation.

It's sad to see EU reduced to this kind of relationships between us. Maybe EU isn't ready to exist as it is. They allowed countries into the union and Eurozone that didn't need to be there. Instead of having a corruption-reducing effect, corruption was allowed to go on without scandals for years. EU should have had a civilizing effect on its poorer and more corrupt countries. As it is now, it's a money-shark.

Re:Greece by nomercy400 on Sunday July 05, 2015 @04:36AM (#9832946)
So accepting the fact that both are responsible, what should the EU do with their relations with Greece? They can demand the money back, but that isn't helping. They can expect no money back, but what to do then? Kick Greece out of the euro, and accept failure of the principle that once in the eurozone, you stay in the eurozone? Basically accepting failure.
Re:Greece by nhaehnle on Sunday July 05, 2015 @05:04AM (#9832985)
Option 3 is to implement a proper fiscal union. It's not clear how best to go forward with that (and as much as I'm in favor, it looks politically unrealistic right now), but it is clear that it's the only option for long-term survival of the Eurozone.
Re:Greece by jacquesm on Sunday July 05, 2015 @06:45AM (#9833131)
On some level the current problems stem from the EU growing too fast, both in area and in features. Adding yet another feature will not work, it will only ensure the eventual breakdown of the system. What's needed is to pause the expansion and the degree to which nation states are forced to give up their sovereignity and when (if?) the kinks are ironed out of the current setup to review what the best next step is and then to implement that step very very slowly with signficant buy-in of the various states in the union. Only then will the trend be reversed.
Re:Greece by pjc50 on Sunday July 05, 2015 @05:32AM (#9833030)
The EU was never to be a transfer union

The EU was never meant to be a currency union either, it was a trading bloc when the UK signed up to the EEC.