News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Dutch universities start their Elsevier boycott plan by jrochkind1 on Thursday July 02, 2015 @09:59PM (#9822973)
I'm a librarian computer programmer, and somewhat familiar with the 'industry'.

We've definitely inherited something from a pre-digital age, where it took non-trivial capital and staff to actually publish and distribute stuff.

But on the other hand, there are still aspects that make it unclear exactly how to change the 'market'.

Someone else in this thread said what the publishers provide is 'prestige'. I don't think that's exactly it -- the editors and peer-reviewers, which are who provides the prestige, are largely unpaid (or very trivially paid), even at commercial publishers. That's not where the money is going.

It still takes some staff to organize and provide administrative services for the actual prestige-providing volunteer editorial staff. Receive papers, send the out, copy edit them, get them in the right format for publication. I'm not actually sure how much staff, not being on that side of the industry.

But it's also not actually free to publish things online, at least not if you do it right (which some publishers do and some don't). Someone's got to write and maintain the software and deal with the operations, pay for the hardware and network, etc.

The costs are presumably less than for print distribution, but we on HN know they are not non-existent. The barriers for a startup may be lower than they used to be, but you still can't scale to serving millions of customers without any income at all. It costs money to put up something on the web, in this case the something being hundreds of thousands (millions?) of articles, that you keep up forever, with good metadata, etc.

So who will pay for it, and how? Formerly, largely libraries paid for it as customers of publishers, and they paid for it because if they didn't pay their subscription they didn't have access to it. They were customers.

Who's going to fund the endeavor when you will get access to the content whether you pay or not? University libraries, who pay for it now, don't generally have budgets (and the people who set the budgets) which allow them to pay for things just because it's good for society. They are getting their budgets squeezed too. Even though it's the universities who pay the exhorbitant rates to get access to the content produced by people who's salaries they already pay. (the authors, editors, and peer-reviewers), and they would benefit from a 'market' that worked entirely differently -- nobody's yet figured out how to create that market.

Maybe governments will pay. Perhaps via university systems in other wealthy countries where, unlike the U.S., universities are almost all public and part of a centralized organization. It sounds like that's what the Dutch are trying to do. People are trying to figure it out. In the U.S., government grants are starting to maybe include line items to pay for publication, but we're still figuring out what the actual right cost for that is, or how to create the organizations to organize it without charging extortionate rates. And meanwhile, existing faculty, without who's buy-in no change can happen, have a fear of major changes to the existing precarious system which may be a mess, but existing faculty know how to deal with it (or they wouldn't be existing faculty). Like people scared of change everywhere.

Re:Dutch universities start their Elsevier boycott plan by dougmccune on Friday July 03, 2015 @10:21AM (#9825725)
Thanks for your insight, it's really great hearing from a librarian. One sad, but interesting note: while it seems ridiculous, our costs to publish a paper have typically increased rather than decreased. The margins on traditional journals are actually shrinking, not growing. This is mostly because we simply can't easily drop print entirely for legacy journals. New ones we can launch digital only (although there are lots of reasons that launching new journals is increasingly difficult too). But even though it sounds ridiculous, our customers (you, the librarian, or at least your peers) often demand print in addition to the electronic. So now we have to pay for the electronic distribution as well as the print.

This is purely a problem of legacy. If you launch a new OA journal there isn't the same print expectation. And granted, it's a problem that will go away eventually. But I continue to be surprised that we can't simply stop doing all printing of journals.

Re:Dutch universities start their Elsevier boycott plan by jrochkind1 on Saturday July 04, 2015 @11:00AM (#9830336)
And yet the amount of money libraries spend on getting access to published scholarly research has gone up astronomically too. [1] [2] (even if you normalize it for inflation, or per university FTE, or as a percentage of library or university budgets, whatever. Astronomicaly.)

So where's the money going?

When Elsevier reported 36% profit margins in 2010 according to Wikipedia[3], I have trouble believing that publishers are being squeezed too much. At least not Elsevier and other mega-publishers. I can't easily find googlable historical Elsevier reported profit margins, but I would be shocked if they have actually gone down rather than up over the past 10-15 years.

For comparison, it looks like traditional major book publishers have profit margins of around 10%. [4]

Wikipedia states and cites << [Elsevier] also claimed that its profit margins are "simply a consequence of the firm's efficient operation" >>

It doesn't sound like decreasing margins to me, and it doesn't seem that way to the universities paying for these margins, who can't afford it.

[1] http://www.marywaltham.com/Journal_pricing_change_Oct08.pdf

[2] http://www.library.illinois.edu/scholcomm/journalcosts.html

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elsevier

[4] http://www.digitalbookworld.com/2014/how-much-money-the-bigg...