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Re:Introducing the ‘right to eavesdrop on your things’ by kijin on Tuesday June 30, 2015 @04:18AM (#9803713)
1. The title gives the wrong impression. It might be better to phrase it as "right to eavesdrop on (my|your) own things".

2. I'm not sure that communication transparency is what led to the success of PCs, smartphones, and the Web. Perhaps the Web, but definitely not smartphones. People had to fight tooth and nail for the right to root or jailbreak their own phones!

3. How do you add the ability to eavesdrop on a device without compromising TLS or adding a remote back door that anyone could exploit? The only way that I can think of, and the only way that this has traditionally been done with PCs, is to give local root to the owner.

If the owner has root, then he can make the device trust his own certificate and proceed to MITM it with his own router. But an owner with root can also modify the device's "firmware" to make it behave in ways that the manufacturer never intended, and manufacturers will do everything in their power to prevent this. Nobody wants to admit that they're actually selling general-purpose computers.

If the manufacturers are not going to cooperate (and I don't think they will), then perhaps what needs to happen is that we should start rooting/jailbreaking every smart device we can get our hands on, and thereby force them to be transparent. It can't be that difficult, after all. Where are all the clever folks who helped root and jailbreak our phones? Let's send them some TVs to play with, warranties be damned. Perfect security doesn't exist, and we can use that fact to our advantage.

Re:Introducing the ‘right to eavesdrop on your things’ by keithwinstein on Tuesday June 30, 2015 @12:30PM (#9806443)
(Author here.) Our thinking is that the protocol would enable a read-only monitor, which would be able to see the plaintext but not modify it without detection. As the article says, this is what it would take to build a good IDS/IPS for your things -- something that can audit the communications and make sure what's going in and out matches what you should expect.

We're not proposing that the IDS/IPS should necessarily be able to MITM the connections. Then you're just putting all your trust into the IDS/IPS and making it the single point of vulnerability (just like the device is now). But if you have a construction that lets you build a read-only IDS/IPS, then you could in theory buy 100 of them from different manufacturers and have them all audit each other.

One straw-man way to do this would be to run a stream of "integrity-only TLS" inside normal TLS. The outer TLS would allow the owner to install their own CA root certificate on the Thing. The inner TLS would be pinned to the public key of the cloud provider. The IDS/IPS would MITM the outer connection and would be able to read the inner stream, but the MAC on the inner stream would prevent tampering by the IDS/IPS.

Re:Introducing the ‘right to eavesdrop on your things’ by kijin on Tuesday June 30, 2015 @09:02PM (#9809400)
That's an interesting proposal, but I'm concerned that it sounds a bit like intentionally crippling TLS. Historically, TLS has had all sorts of subtle bugs that could bite you in the ass unless you did things just right. It will take a lot of time and effort to demonstrate that the layered protocol you propose is no less secure than vanilla TLS.

I'm also not sure whether it's a good idea to make it so easy for typical users to add their own CA certificates to smart devices. Such a facility could be easily subverted by criminals and governments to eavesdrop on a large number of users. (Remember when people would XSS themselves on Facebook by pasting crap into their browser console?)

It's just as impossible to open a backdoor for the owner and nobody else as it is to open a backdoor for the FBI and nobody else. So I think there's some value in making it difficult to eavesdrop on your own devices. Perhaps it really should require taking off the cover and attaching a serial console.

Re:Introducing the ‘right to eavesdrop on your things’ by schoen on Tuesday June 30, 2015 @12:27PM (#9806419)
Also, the "right to root or jailbreak" you're referring to is just an exemption from DMCA liability if you do it (and correspondingly, agreement from the Copyright Office that it doesn't appear to be a copyright infringement when you do it for certain purposes). But if nobody finds a way to root or jailbreak a certain device, its users are still out of luck -- and if a manufacturer wants to sue jailbreak developers (who aren't protected by the DMCA exemption) or even users under some other theory, it can still try to do so.

So there might be some further tooth-and-nail fighting in users' future.

Re:Introducing the ‘right to eavesdrop on your things’ by detaro on Tuesday June 30, 2015 @08:40AM (#9804736)
> If the owner has root, then he can make the device trust his own certificate

Or manufacturers could allow users to set their own trusted certificate. Doesn't need root, can be reasonably secure.