I'll add that some who have been at the forefront of fighting for the abolishment of the oppressions you list have done so while following Christianity (MLK, Wilberforce)

The immediate difficulty comes when we as religious citizens have trouble with separating what is civilly permissible with what is a religious ideal.

Long term, religious people are worried that our institution and faith will not be allowed to continue if a super-majority deems us unworthy - as we have seen through history.

As for me I'm not terribly upset at all as over my short life I should be infinitely more worried about my sacramental relationship with my wife than what others claim marriage should look like.

I would also point out from a religious standpoint that some people have found solace today actually points to the reality of how wonderful sacramental marriage truly is.

Indeed. You, or any other religious group, can have whatever prohibitions you believe in your own lives, homes and churches. Different groups can have different prohibitions. However, they must therefore be kept separate and out of the public law and state, because that space can only accomodate one or zero religions. The US constitution specifies zero: no establishment of religion. This enforces a ceasefire between the doctrines that would otherwise fight to be the one doctrine that has control of the state, as Europe experienced during the Reformation and Islam is experiencing in the Sunni-Shia conflict.

For decades if not longer it was non-straight people who were deemed unworthy and not allowed freedom from persecution by the religious supermajority. There really isn't a desire to put the boot on the other foot - provided you don't condemn people.

Perhaps if the spiritual and temporal benefits of marriage were entirely separable this wouldn't be a problem. But the UK tried it with civil partnerships and it was so obviously a "separate but equal" (ie not equal) arrangement that full equal marriage was enacted.

> Long term, religious people are worried that our institution and faith will not be allowed to continue if a super-majority deems us unworthy - as we have seen through history.

A sincere question: I can see that risk for small religious minorities facing a history of discrimtination (e.g., Jews and Muslims). But most people talking about this are white-skinned Protestants and Catholics. Have they ever been subject to discrimination in the U.S.? And aren't they the most powerful political grouping in the country?

There was discrimination against Catholics in prior generations, but I don't see that now (just look at the Supreme Court!).

But I would also say that we have persecuted the weak from the start - Native populations, African-Americans, Irish, and Japanese to name a few.

From a religious and biological standpoint our greatest persecution is our most recent - we have (in my opinion) disposed of 50,000,000 children in the womb during the last 40 years for various reasons.

So, while indeed Christians have nothing to fear based on our numbers, I could imagine that in the future that our claim a supernatural relationship with an unprovable entity will be deem us mentally unfit and not worthy of consideration.

Oddly enough our Bible acknowledges us as crazy " We are fools for Christ! [...] We are weak, but you are strong! You are honored, we are dishonored!" in 1 Corinthians.

The weird bit - from a Christian perspective, we Christians deserve persecution.

We have been given the faith and love of Jesus Christ, and we have not shared that love and kindness with our neighbors. From our standpoint, those that have been given much will be called to account, and (again from our standpoint) we have been given everything in Christ Jesus.

Certainly I agree that many groups have been persecuted, and I understand how abortion could be very troubling depending on your beliefs. To me, persectution of Christians seems to be a far-off, theoretical possibility at this point, but it's too easy to downlplay risks that won't affect me. I certainly see that, in some settings, taking a religious approach to an issue would be a non-starter, so in that respect people with strong religious beliefs are marginalized.

Thanks again. It's very interesting and enlightening.

>And aren't they the most powerful political grouping in the country?

If they really were, they would have stopped this ruling presumably.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/12/us/north-carolina-allows-o...

Wait and see though, is what I say.

The key point about the Idaho ministers is this: "The Hitching Post has apparently in the past operated as a for-profit business and offered civil services as well as religious ceremonies. Earlier this month, it either became a religious organization or decided to present itself as such. If the Knapps are operating and plan to continue operating the Hitching Post as a religious organiztion, they have no reason to fear prosecution from the city."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/denmark/931...

If the church has a problem with this, it should divorce the state.

In neighbouring Sweden, church and state separated in the year 2000, so when same-sex marriage was finally made legal in 2010, this was simply not an issue. The Church of Sweden can deny same-sex marriages on its premises and by its staff if it so chooses.

As a former Mormon, I'll give a resounding YES. Mormons have a persecution complex. And whenever Prop 8 or gay marriage is brought up it gets even worse. They tend to inflate opposition - you say "we should legalize gay marriage" and they will respond "I have a right to talk about my religious beliefs!!"

Second: Do you remember the Mormon funded ad blitz in California, which promised all kinds of (patently untrue) negative consequences if prop 8 went the wrong way? Kids being indoctrinated in grade school, churches of all kinds forced to cater to same sex couples, etc.

I also think they are putting it in there as a covering themselves, preempting the argument from others.