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Re:Is Gravity Time’s Archer? by Udo on Tuesday June 23, 2015 @06:02PM (#9768149)
The problem with this view is causality. Since things happening as a result of other things is pretty much the definition of "time moving forward", there is no reasonable definition of time moving backwards that still includes causality.

In other words, the "backwards" world he described is exactly the world we live in, since there would be no measurable way to tell the difference. A world where you're getting younger but can only remember the things that happened in the future is pretty much the same as a world where you're getting older but can only remember things that happened in the past.

Re:Is Gravity Time’s Archer? by cshimmin on Tuesday June 23, 2015 @06:26PM (#9768243)
> things happening as a result of other things is pretty much the definition of "time moving forward"

No, that's the definition of causality. Just because you are used to thinking of casual relationships in the context of forward-moving time, doesn't mean that time's arrow has anything to do with it. That's kind of a meta correlation/causation argument.

In physics causality is more appropriately defined in terms of the propagation of forces/information. E.g. if you are farther than a distance c*t away from me, we cannot be causally connected because no signal moving at the speed of light could propagate (either forwards, or backwards in time) to connect our worldlines.

Re:Is Gravity Time’s Archer? by Udo on Tuesday June 23, 2015 @06:37PM (#9768281)
> No, that's the definition of causality. [...] That's kind of a meta correlation/causation argument.

It's more than that. The only way for us to actually tell which way the arrow of time points is by watching causal events.

> In physics causality is more appropriately defined in terms of the propagation of forces/information.

But that's exactly my point, I'm not sure where the miscommunication happened there. I object to the time-flowing-backwards statement in the article, because anyone who suggests a scenario where you're getting younger while being aware of it has left scientific reality behind.

Moving on beyond the article: You can theoretically assert that the propagation of information could just as well happen backwards, but in the real world this becomes just exceedingly unlikely after just a couple of interactions following an event. So yes, this process has everything to do with the direction and the nature of time.

Causality is not just another thing that mysteriously happens in one certain direction, it's a process that by its very nature can only happen in one direction. I have a feeling you're going to object to this, but in my opinion an information theoretical view of time is just as valid - if not more so - than to hang it on the direction of gravity. It's a construct that helps illustrate why time flowing backwards can never be a perceptible/measurable thing.

Re:Is Gravity Time’s Archer? by ajuc on Wednesday June 24, 2015 @07:37AM (#9770891)
> It's more than that. The only way for us to actually tell which way the arrow of time points is by watching causal events.

No. We can take arbitrarily spaced "snapshots" of a closed system, and determine which was taken earlier by measuring entropy. No need for casuality.

Re:Is Gravity Time’s Archer? by Udo on Wednesday June 24, 2015 @10:45AM (#9771915)
> No. We can take arbitrarily spaced "snapshots" of a closed system, and determine which was taken earlier by measuring entropy.

That is not correct. A closed system may by convention still exchange energy with the outside (just not any matter). What you're really talking about is called an isolated system, which is a theoretical construct that does not occur in nature.

Fundamentally, time, causality, and entropy are related, especially considering the idea of entropy as seen through a probabilistic lens with information causality in mind (see Pawlowski et al arXiv:0905.2292).

However, I think causality overall has a stronger, more basic link to the direction of time, and here is why: Entropy can always be reduced locally in an open system without affecting the flow of time at all. Causality, on the other hand, is not subject to reversal under any known circumstances, as long as a reasonable amount of information and time is involved. If, by some yet unknown mechanism, causality were reversed then so would be the direction of time, which in turn means the whole thing could not possibly be measured - not even in principle. Hence the argument that this reversal may not be possible since it's literally something that cannot exist in our universe. No such link exists between entropy and time, respectively.

Re:Is Gravity Time’s Archer? by meatysnapper on Tuesday June 23, 2015 @06:21PM (#9768220)
We can now enjoy hangovers, because we know it guarantees that a tremendously good evening will ensue!
Re:Is Gravity Time’s Archer? by mkempe on Tuesday June 23, 2015 @08:04PM (#9768681)
Time, like space, is a relation. Causality indicates that things act according to their nature. This is how relations change. Change, what we commonly think of as the passage of time, is the inevitable unfolding of an entity's potential to actuality, acting according to its identity.

How would change switch direction, actuality revert to potential? would change still be change? I suggest reading Heraclitus, Parmenides, and Aristotle.

With eternal, metaphysical love.

Re:Is Gravity Time’s Archer? by Udo on Tuesday June 23, 2015 @08:26PM (#9768776)
Those are not statements about physics though. They just employ some of the lingo.
Re:Is Gravity Time’s Archer? by mkempe on Tuesday June 23, 2015 @08:45PM (#9768845)
Physics depends on metaphysics.
Re:Is Gravity Time’s Archer? by Udo on Tuesday June 23, 2015 @09:05PM (#9768925)
I really do hate to start a reply with a flat-out "no", but in this case it's warranted, sorry to say. There are two ways of looking at this, and none of them permit this conclusion:

Physics as a science does not depend on metaphysics in any way. When a physicist does his/her work, it does not require the invocation of supernatural principles. While speculation and hypotheses are essential to the scientific process because they drive further exploration, metaphysical arguments on the other hand are just postulates about the nature of reality - and they are in most cases either in direct conflict with observational data, or designed to be un-disprovable.

Now for physics, as in the actual universe. This doesn't depend on metaphysics either. In fact, it's the other way around. As the universe develops, intelligent life emerges, humans in our case. These humans can then invent religion and the supernatural. The physical world came first.

Re:Is Gravity Time’s Archer? by mkempe on Tuesday June 23, 2015 @10:26PM (#9769200)
Proper metaphysics is very limited and has nothing to do with the supernatural. When physicists do their work they rely on such concepts as existence, identity, causality, the relation of consciousness to these. That's metaphysics.

To state that "the physical world came first" is to assert the primacy of existence in opposition to the primacy of consciousness (e.g. Descartes) -- that's correct and that's metaphysics.

Re:Is Gravity Time’s Archer? by Udo on Tuesday June 23, 2015 @11:13PM (#9769324)
We went off on a tangent there, I suspect we've already bored everyone else in this thread to death ;)

I want to close with the observation that whether you're aware of it or not, you're talking about supernatural claims that have been postulated without any scientific evidence.

To make this distinction between the words metaphysical and supernatural feels a bit similar to fundamentalist Christians who assert that they're not religious - a phenomenon which I suspect happens for the same reasons: because they believe their faith represents the "truth" about the universe, it doesn't count as a religion. But to everyone else, it still does.

Re:Is Gravity Time’s Archer? by mkempe on Tuesday June 23, 2015 @11:32PM (#9769386)
Are you claiming there is no evidence for the concept of causality? and that any discussion of existence or identity is the province of faith, not reason? If some people replace metaphysics with religous idiocy, that does not invalidate the field as such -- the same applies to all fields of rational inquiry, from physics to psychology.

I subscribe to the evidence of the senses, logic, and science. If you think any discourse about such topics belongs to the supernatural and religious, that's your problem, not mine.

Re:Is Gravity Time’s Archer? by whoopdedo on Tuesday June 23, 2015 @09:23PM (#9768997)
The relative nature of time is kind of what Mercati is working with (I think). He's trying to describe entropy using only a self-relative framework. That is, without using fixed metrics like temperature or distance in an absolute frame of reference.

There was another article about this on HN previously.[1]

Why is it that the causal relations existing as a result of elementary forces spreading from one particle to another only ever change in one direction in time? When you map the space of the universe onto two dimensions, you see the effects of forces radiating from their origins as circles. But when you reduce all of space to one dimension and add another dimension of time, those forces only appear as cones, all pointing the same direction. What is stopping the forces from flowing backward, or even sideways in time? The math we're using gives no indication why this is the case. That's what has physicists scratching their heads.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8561654