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Re:U.S. Tech Funding – What’s Going On? by Animats on Monday June 15, 2015 @11:41PM (#9723687)
"It's interesting how it seems that inequality is an unintended consequence of Sarbanes-Oxley."

No, it's a consequence of low interest rates. "Private equity" is mostly borrowed money. Think "leveraged buyout", not "all-cash deal". Here's a list of the top 10 private equity lenders for 2011.[1] #1 is Bank of America.

Back in 2000, 1-year Treasury bills were paying around 5.11%. Today they're around 0.26%. Debt financing looks much more attractive with today's low, low rates.

[1] https://www.preqin.com/blog/101/4683/top-10-pe-debt-financer...

Re:U.S. Tech Funding – What’s Going On? by pbreit on Tuesday June 16, 2015 @12:31AM (#9723834)
I don't think this is accurate. All the companies I know would rather go public in order to enable investors/employees/shareholders to get some liquidity (and for the company to gain credibility). The secondary market, while fulfilling this desire to some extent, is still not even close to what you get in an IPO. The onerous regulations are still clearly depressing the IPO market.
Re:U.S. Tech Funding – What’s Going On? by xenophon on Tuesday June 16, 2015 @01:58AM (#9724040)
I work for a company that has deferred its IPO from plan, and from what I understand the SOX regulatory burden has very little, if anything to do with it.

Credibility and providing liquidity for investors and shareholders are certainly important reasons why companies decide to go public. But there are also downsides to going public -- most notably the myopic time horizon of the public markets, which is a huge barrier to the kind of long-term product and user acquisition investments pursued by tech companies in particular.

You can weigh these factors against one another, but ultimately the fundamental reason a company IPOs is to raise a large sum of money at an attractive valuation. Given that investors are lining up to help private companies meet this goal, the ancillary drivers you mention just aren't enough to push companies over the edge into the public markets.

Re:U.S. Tech Funding – What’s Going On? by tsotha on Tuesday June 16, 2015 @01:50AM (#9724029)
The big payday isn't from an IPO any more, but rather from selling out to a larger company. Big tech companies have more money than they know what to do with.
Re:U.S. Tech Funding – What’s Going On? by hkmurakami on Tuesday June 16, 2015 @02:10AM (#9724067)
One benefit of this to founders is that a M&A deal provides instant liquidity (barring earn outs), whereas an IPO largely prohibits you from selling off a large percentage of your stock.
Re:U.S. Tech Funding – What’s Going On? by tsotha on Tuesday June 16, 2015 @02:37AM (#9724129)
Yeah. The founder of one of our vendors sold his company for eight figures recently. His only obligation after the sale was to stay on for six months (at an exorbitant salary) while the management structure was integrated into the new parent company.

Seems like an IPO is riddled with all sorts of waiting periods and notifications and paperwork people will want to sue you over if they lose money. I'd definitely go the buyout route if the price was right.

Re:U.S. Tech Funding – What’s Going On? by mcintyre1994 on Tuesday June 16, 2015 @03:28AM (#9724250)
Sorry to dig on such a small part of your comment, but could you elaborate on the credibility comment? I'm just wondering, if you're pulling uber sized rounds and valuations - who are you lacking credibility from that matters? Can't going public damage credibility too if the pricing is wrong?
Re:U.S. Tech Funding – What’s Going On? by pbreit on Tuesday June 16, 2015 @04:19PM (#9728450)
Money is part of it but having proper audits and publishing financials is more what I was referring to.
Re:U.S. Tech Funding – What’s Going On? by tsotha on Tuesday June 16, 2015 @01:47AM (#9724024)
That sounds right to me. Why sell off equity when you can borrow the money you need? There's a hell of a lot of money out there willing to take risks for what used to be considered a mediocre rate of return.
Re:U.S. Tech Funding – What’s Going On? by josu on Tuesday June 16, 2015 @12:20PM (#9726939)
That's not an option for startups. Their choice is whether to sell equity to public or to private investors.

The ones that are borrowing the money are private investors.

Re:U.S. Tech Funding – What’s Going On? by jackgavigan on Tuesday June 16, 2015 @06:01AM (#9724771)
Until interest rates start going up, at which point things could get a bit messy.
Re:U.S. Tech Funding – What’s Going On? by cmullen on Tuesday June 16, 2015 @03:00AM (#9724179)
This isn't really applicable for high-growth venture backed companies because generally, they aren't leverageable. It's almost impossible to lever a minority equity investment in a private company. It's true equity capital going into late stage VC / growth equity.

However, for mature tech businesses that have real cash flow, LBO valuations are driven by a levered cash flow yield. Valuations in this world are increased with higher debt availability and low interest rates.

The primary mechanism by which low interest rates influence late stage VC / growth equity valuations is in the amount of capital the LP community / institutional investor base allocates to those asset classes. Right now, that allocation is quite large driven by the need to move into riskier asset classes to drive investment yield.

Re:U.S. Tech Funding – What’s Going On? by javajosh on Tuesday June 16, 2015 @12:11AM (#9723771)
So the rich borrow cheaply, invest the money, and profit?
Re:U.S. Tech Funding – What’s Going On? by blazespin on Tuesday June 16, 2015 @01:09AM (#9723937)
Those who dedicated their life to capital allocation, yes, they are allowed to borrow cheaply and profit. I thought about going into this in university, but there is something very soul draining about it. Too bad I discovered warren buffet later in life. More power to these folks. In fact, we shouldn't even be taxing them. We should just start taxing things like mansions, yachts, and super cars by 5x.
Re:U.S. Tech Funding – What’s Going On? by JDDunn9 on Tuesday June 16, 2015 @02:15AM (#9724083)
There's no logical reason not to tax investors. They aren't unique butterflies that make the economy flourish. Investment is just one component of a functioning economy. So is education, saving, consumption, etc. Too much focus on one is not a good thing. This is one of the reasons we have so many investor bubbles. Also, the wealthy have no other options than to invest their money. What else would they do with it, put it under their mattress? The ROI is the only incentive they need. All this does is increase income inequality.
Re:U.S. Tech Funding – What’s Going On? by _yosefk on Tuesday June 16, 2015 @06:07AM (#9724787)
"No other options" than investing one's savings? Go to Russia to find out some of those other options, or any other place where people don't count on their wealth not to be confiscated at an unpredictable moment. Basically the other option is "doing expensive stupid shit" and you'd be surprised how many variations of this one can come up with. Certainly society as a whole ends up waaaay less wealthy if "the wealthy" (or those with any sort of surplus, really) end up strongly preferring spending to investment.

Hence taxing yachts sounds to me like it could be smarter than taxing investment. (Not 100% sure, as usual with these things, just looks sensible at first glance.)

Re:U.S. Tech Funding – What’s Going On? by unprepare on Tuesday June 16, 2015 @09:18AM (#9725481)
Imagine you have a business; Would you rather have a customer or an investor?
Re:U.S. Tech Funding – What’s Going On? by _yosefk on Tuesday June 16, 2015 @01:30PM (#9727413)
Imagine you're on a lonely island. Would you rather eat all you can or conserve food to the extent possible?

Earth is humanity's lonely island. (I realize it's more complicated than that because billions of men on Earth do not make decisions in the same way that a lonely man on an island does. All I'm saying is that it is still more desirable to invest than save when we can, at least past some point. The extent to which society depends on consumption, perhaps excessive consumption, today, and "how to get from here to there" I don't know. I am however certain that flogging savers badly enough with high taxes will result in people burning their savings in what "from humanity's point of view" are very wasteful ways; also in people saving less in the first place by working less in the first place, also not that great - "imagine you have a business, would you rather have a worker who wants to make as much as he can and save it, or work as little as needed to survive because he can't save?")

Re:U.S. Tech Funding – What’s Going On? by unprepare on Wednesday June 17, 2015 @10:20AM (#9731895)
We are clearly discussing two different things.

You are saying overconsumption by the super rich is ultimately environmentally damaging. (which i don't disagree with)

I am saying underconsumption by the middle/lowerclass is immediately economically damaging.

Prioritizing investment over consumption leads to inequality and poor economic outcomes.

Re:U.S. Tech Funding – What’s Going On? by _yosefk on Wednesday June 17, 2015 @05:36PM (#9735472)
I dont distinguish between billionaires and middle class folks in this respect. Overconsumption by the middle class us likely much more environmentally damaging. Does it drive the economy? Perhaps; if so, it's a problem. And certainly the Russian middle class consumes more of what it makes than European or American because lacking reliable property rights they do not trust investments to pay off.
Re:U.S. Tech Funding – What’s Going On? by unprepare on Wednesday June 17, 2015 @07:01PM (#9735821)
Seems to me like an argument for sustainable manufacturing, rather than anti-consumption

Curbing consumption is immediately damaging to the economy. The better solution would be to heavily tax unsustainable business practices, rather than try to curb consumption. If you go after consumption you give more power to the super rich, while simultaneously doing nothing to discourage environmentally unsound business practices.

Why is it better to continue producing products in an environmentally unfriendly way with lower consumption of goods, rather than lowering the production of environmentally damaging products, while raising consumption rates of sustainable products?

Go after the supply not the demand.

Re:U.S. Tech Funding – What’s Going On? by yummyfajitas on Tuesday June 16, 2015 @06:57AM (#9724929)
On the contrary, there is no logical reason to tax investors/savers. I strongly recommend this article by Scott Sumner, who works through the details carefully.

http://www.themoneyillusion.com/?p=28842

The key point is that taxes on investments create distortions while taxes on consumption don't. It's even worse if you tax different investments differently (e.g., interest vs cap gains, short term vs long term cap gains).

Re:U.S. Tech Funding – What’s Going On? by JDDunn9 on Tuesday June 16, 2015 @07:30AM (#9725034)
That article has too many flaws to go into, but the whole idea of all investments growing the economy are just false. Most of the investment dollars go to areas with little to no benefit. The (secondary) stock market, derivatives, commodity speculation, forex, etc. These produce almost no jobs, produce no goods/services, and do very little (aside from marginal liquidity) for the economy. An economy build on financial magic and imaginary money isn't sound.
Re:U.S. Tech Funding – What’s Going On? by yummyfajitas on Tuesday June 16, 2015 @08:02AM (#9725128)
That article has too many flaws to go into...

Such a cute - yet content-free - dismissal. It's also pretty clear from your "critique" that you didn't even read the article - while Sumner's examples do use a positive rate of return, his argument is independent of it.

Re:U.S. Tech Funding – What’s Going On? by SamReidHughes on Wednesday June 17, 2015 @01:25AM (#9730197)
Derivatives, commodity speculation, forex, etc, all allow organizations to hedge risks and make decisions that have higher expected economic returns.
Re:U.S. Tech Funding – What’s Going On? by millstone on Wednesday June 17, 2015 @03:24AM (#9730436)
I read it and I don't get it! Here, take a look:

> Suppose we want to raise revenue with a present value of $20,000...We could have a wage tax of 20%, and raise $20,000 right now.

OK, sure.

> In contrast, an income tax doubles taxes the money saved, once as wages, and again as capital income . So now it’s $40,000 consumption this year, and only $72,000 in 20 years ($80,000 minus 20% tax on the $40,000 in investment income), an effective tax rate of 28% on future consumption

So the line of reasoning is:

1. The government wishes to raise $20k NPV in taxes

2. A 20% wage tax or VAT will accomplish this exactly, but a 20% income tax will raise $24k NPV, which means it is an effectively higher tax

3. Therefore income taxes are worse than wage taxes or VAT.

But that doesn't follow at all. The correct conclusion is that an income tax raises the same revenue with a lower nominal rate. That doesn't by itself make an income tax better or worse.

Re:U.S. Tech Funding – What’s Going On? by yummyfajitas on Wednesday June 17, 2015 @07:41AM (#9731119)
The issue is that an income tax (which applies to both capital and wage income) taxes savers at a higher rate than spendthrifts.

I.e., if Steve blows all his money on hookers, he pays a 20% tax. However, if Sally judiciously saves her money for a rainy day or unexpected expense, she will be paying a 28% tax rate.

Re:U.S. Tech Funding – What’s Going On? by golergka on Tuesday June 16, 2015 @03:50AM (#9724300)
Since I sense (from the phrase "the rich") that you mean it as something bad: it's not. Just imagine whom would you rather lend your hard-earned money to: a wealthy investor with a proven track record, or a regular Joe. Well, that's exactly what the bank you keep your money it is doing.
Re:U.S. Tech Funding – What’s Going On? by javajosh on Tuesday June 16, 2015 @04:39AM (#9724459)
Is the money the Fed lends out "hard-earned" or is it manufactured as a side-effect of fiscal policy (e.g. quantitative easing)? Does it seem right that public policy should so clearly benefit the wealthy by forcing money into the economy through private allocation experts?

There should be a way for entrepreneurs to tap into that money directly, avoiding the wealthy, gate-keeping middle-men. I resent those people, because the irony is that such people make money as money flows through them, thanks to fees, so even their wealth doesn't necessarily mean they are any good at allocation. Even if you take into account returns, in a growing economy when most bets are good bets. Money should flow through people who know how to make real things, not just make decisions.

Re:U.S. Tech Funding – What’s Going On? by golergka on Tuesday June 16, 2015 @05:49AM (#9724717)
But still: whom would you give your money? To people who are wealthy because a lot of money have gone through them, or to entrepreneurs?
Re:U.S. Tech Funding – What’s Going On? by eli_gottlieb on Tuesday June 16, 2015 @10:03AM (#9725822)
To entrepreneurs, of course. Money doesn't beget money by magic; it needs to flow to someone who actually makes things and works, or the rate of return drops for everyone.
Re:U.S. Tech Funding – What’s Going On? by azernik on Tuesday June 16, 2015 @12:26AM (#9723814)
Yyyyup.

Which, by the way, is the entire point of the Fed reducing interest rates - to stimulate growth by encouraging increased spending (including investment) of cheaply-borrowed money.

Re:U.S. Tech Funding – What’s Going On? by hkmurakami on Tuesday June 16, 2015 @02:19AM (#9724095)
Yes, at the very bottom (top?) of this food chain, you see banks taking a spread between their loan rates and the Federal Funds Rate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_funds_rate
Re:U.S. Tech Funding – What’s Going On? by thisisit on Wednesday June 17, 2015 @12:28PM (#9733046)
And the oft quoted "inflation adjusted" valuation of companies proves to be misleading, which it does in the mentioned presentation. With the current climate of Feds still pumping money and keeping rates low, inflation hasn't taken off.