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Re:How New York and San Francisco's Tight Housing Markets Ar... by cromwellian on Friday May 08, 2015 @11:13PM (#9515339)
Population of SF = 837,000 Size of SF = 239 sq mi

Population of NYC = 8,400,000 Size of NYC = 469 sq mi

10x the people on 2x the land.

SF looks more like a suburbs in many places than a city. The reality is, the city has two choices:

1) Build up, change the city skyline and look 2) Keep SF's "look" frozen, and watch as limited supply continues to drive prices sky high

Re:How New York and San Francisco's Tight Housing Markets Ar... by raldi on Friday May 08, 2015 @11:23PM (#9515363)
San Francisco's population density is 7,000 people per square kilometer. There are many beautiful, beloved cities throughout the world that manage to accommodate far greater density numbers:

* Barcelona: 16,000

* Buenos Aires: 14,000

* Central London: 13,000

* Manhattan: 25,846

* New York City (overall): 10,100

* Singapore: 7,600

* Paris: 22,000

* Central Tokyo: 14,500

Here's a map of the zoning ceilings throughout San Francisco: http://i.imgur.com/Tn7CSTX.jpg

Every yellow block in that picture is zoned 40-X, which means that buildings taller than four stories are not welcome. If we raised that to six stories (as is the norm, e.g., throughout most of Paris), we could easily accommodate hundreds of thousands of new residents.

Re:How New York and San Francisco's Tight Housing Markets Ar... by papa on Friday May 08, 2015 @11:56PM (#9515434)
The number for SF is definitely not right if you're looking at SF city proper.

According to Wikipedia, based on the 2014 estimate of ~850k people, the per square kilometer density figure for SF proper is 7,000.

Is there room for growth in SF? Definitely. You'll get no argument from me on that. And I agree with you that Parisian style density is a fantastic thing. It also goes to show you that skyscrapers aren't essential for high density urban living.

By the same token, I do think people tend to underestimate the density of 3-story tracts in SF. The zip code I'm living in in SF, for instance which is dotted with 2-4 story buildings for the most part boasts a respectable 31,000 people per sq mile (and this is on the west side of the city). Many observers, without actually looking at the actual population statistics, would probably say this is a low density neighborhood when the reality is that it is anything but.

If we can achieve those densities with a mere 3 stories, imagine how many more people we could house if we upzoned to 6.

Btw, you can find neighborhood density figures for the 2010 US census by zip code here: http://projects.nytimes.com/census/2010/map (look under the "more maps" drop down)

EDIT: Looks like you corrected the SF numbers.

Re:How New York and San Francisco's Tight Housing Markets Ar... by raldi on Friday May 08, 2015 @11:57PM (#9515437)
Indeed -- I updated the number before you finished posting this. :)
Re:How New York and San Francisco's Tight Housing Markets Ar... by wpietri on Friday May 08, 2015 @11:23PM (#9515365)
That would make NYC 5x as dense as SF. But your numbers are wrong. San Francisco's land area is 46.9 square miles. New York's land area is 304 square miles. New York's density is about 50% higher.

But it's not clear that New York shows any a path forward. They did build up, and prices are still high. Maybe that's a sign that blindly increasing housing supply doesn't actually solve the problem.

Re:How New York and San Francisco's Tight Housing Markets Ar... by sadface on Saturday May 09, 2015 @12:12AM (#9515465)
Yes, in some parts of NYC (Manhattan, cool parts of Brooklyn) prices are indeed very high, but there are plenty of parts of NYC where you can find fairly affordable housing while still being in public transit range of the things that make NYC a major "World City". My friend is paying <1500/mo for a 1 bedroom in a good part of Astoria that's about 35 mins by foot + subway from times square. He only moved there a few years ago so it's not like he's taking advantage of some crazy rent control either.

You'd never find something equivalent in the bay area, so overall I think the "density argument" has some validity. Even more so if there would be willingness to expand the public transit infrastructure.

Re:How New York and San Francisco's Tight Housing Markets Ar... by wpietri on Saturday May 09, 2015 @09:36AM (#9516336)
One guy finding a decent apartment still doesn't demonstrate that increasing density does much to solve problems. Also, I question your definition of affordable. $1500/month is 36% of the US median wage. People making less need to live somewhere too.

It also looks like you can find equivalent things in the Bay Area: http://sfbay.craigslist.org/search/apa?maxAsk=1500&bedrooms=...

I am definitely in favor of expanding public transit, though. I think that's a much better way to increase network effects.

Re:How New York and San Francisco's Tight Housing Markets Ar... by santaclaus on Saturday May 09, 2015 @12:46AM (#9515526)
Astoria is probably next up on neighborhoods to explode in rent. Hell, LIC of all places is starting to look like parts of Williamsburg.
Re:How New York and San Francisco's Tight Housing Markets Ar... by eaurouge on Friday May 08, 2015 @11:24PM (#9515367)
San Francisco is only 46.9 square miles. It is dense (17,246 people/sq.mile) but not as dense as NYC (27,016 people/sq.mile).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by...

Re:How New York and San Francisco's Tight Housing Markets Ar... by 31reasons on Friday May 08, 2015 @11:22PM (#9515360)
We need Hyperloop so that you can live in LA and work in SF!
Re:How New York and San Francisco's Tight Housing Markets Ar... by harimau on Saturday May 09, 2015 @12:56AM (#9515562)
Re:How New York and San Francisco's Tight Housing Markets Ar... by 31reasons on Saturday May 09, 2015 @01:50PM (#9517056)
You can find $1200/month apartments all over LA (may be not Santa Monica). Is that true for SF ?