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Re:Introducing PackageManagement in Windows 10 by Someone1234 on Wednesday April 29, 2015 @02:54PM (#9460788)
Windows Server needs to restart at MOST once a month ("patch tuesday"). If I look at a 2012 Core server, it hasn't even restarted nearly that often in the past year. In fact 9 times in 12 months.

Plus I can schedule this restart at any hour, on any day, I wish. And do. For example I restart mine on Thursday morning at 1 am.

If that really makes Windows Server "unsuitable for servers" then your downtime requirements must be so high that any single server wouldn't be able to meet them (i.e. even with Linux you'd need two or more servers to provide that level of uptime).

Re:Introducing PackageManagement in Windows 10 by akulbe on Wednesday April 29, 2015 @03:01PM (#9460841)
Once a month is way too often. Even if your downtime requirements are "so high", once a month is ridiculous.

For the sake of this example, let's assume you have customers that depend on your server being up, for the product/service they're paying you for.

Tell the customers that you plan on rebooting once a month, and see how they feel about it.

Re:Introducing PackageManagement in Windows 10 by Someone1234 on Wednesday April 29, 2015 @03:14PM (#9460937)
In that scenario I'd never have just a single server, be it Linux, Windows, BSD, or anything else.

Being in a situation where you're completely unable to restart a machine without losing money, is being in a situation where you're living on a knife edge regardless. A single hardware failure and you're in deep trouble.

I've been in exactly that situation (the entire company rested on a single Ubuntu server), it was really unpleasant and management didn't do a thing about it until we started getting sector errors which the RAID controller's error handling was struggling to cope with (after that incident and the downtime, management shelled out for four physical boxes, a SAN, VMWare licenses, and a setup with 15 minute rollbacks and dynamic migrations if a physical server died).

Re:Introducing PackageManagement in Windows 10 by mreiland on Wednesday April 29, 2015 @06:17PM (#9462204)
his point remains. being forced to run 2 servers so your server doesn't go down once/month is a bit ridiculous.

No, it isn't untenable, yes you can work around it, but that's a problem that shouldn't need to be worked around.

Re:Introducing PackageManagement in Windows 10 by tempestn on Thursday April 30, 2015 @12:30AM (#9463365)
Agreed. Up to a certain point, a single server is going to be considerably more cost effective than multiple machines, as well as requiring less devOps time. (Especially nowadays when you can easily lease a server with, say, 16 cores and 48GB of RAM.) I can recall having to restart our production server exactly once in the past 12 months for a kernel update. Every month would be an irritation for sure.
Re:Introducing PackageManagement in Windows 10 by WorldWideWayne on Thursday April 30, 2015 @02:07AM (#9463559)
Is it normal to update server software like PostgreSQL or Redis on Linux without stopping the running process during the update?

Maybe Linux doesn't need to restart the OS as often, but you're still going to have down time, right?

Re:Introducing PackageManagement in Windows 10 by mreiland on Thursday April 30, 2015 @09:10AM (#9464792)
You can update the software without pulling it down. In order to use the update you need to restart, but there's a large difference between restarting a service and restarting an OS. It isn't really analogous.
Re:Introducing PackageManagement in Windows 10 by WorldWideWayne on Thursday April 30, 2015 @10:48AM (#9465377)
It takes 10 seconds to restart Windows these days, so it's almost analagous.
Re:Introducing PackageManagement in Windows 10 by acdha on Thursday April 30, 2015 @11:37AM (#9465721)
Do you have any benchmarks to support that claim? I have Windows 8 and 10 systems which take minutes to reboot on an SSD which beg to differ.
Re:Introducing PackageManagement in Windows 10 by WorldWideWayne on Thursday April 30, 2015 @02:52PM (#9466908)
You can see it when you do a video search for: Windows fast boot. Here are a couple:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_vUZR2RtRs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkKoggifsE4

(And you don't need to log in for your background services to start.)

Re:Introducing PackageManagement in Windows 10 by acdha on Thursday April 30, 2015 @05:51PM (#9467894)
Neither of those support your original claim. The author is focused on one specific feature, which is nice but excludes the entire shutdown process and booting up until the Windows logo appears. Anyone who's run a server knows that just the BIOS initialization is often much longer than 10 seconds. And, of course, many services take a noticeable amount of time to startup so time-to-available is longer than time-to-login-screen.

Worse, the conversation was actually about the time needed to install updates. Now that Windows logs out before installing updates, you have a fairly sizable time delay – tens of minutes after a large update even on an SSD – while the service is unavailable but before the system starts rebooting.

How does Fast Boot work? Well, it's actually not booting at all – it's logging out all active users and hibernating:

http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2011/09/08/delivering-fas...

That's a really nice bit of work in normal usage but it means that you have to do the standard cold boot process when you're getting a system update. That means that a sysadmin would need to review each update to know whether it would trigger a fast or slow boot, assuming that a patch for e.g. SQL Server wouldn't always trigger a cold boot to be conservative.

The alternative is what everyone's been saying, namely that you have to assume that a reboot is slow and have n > 1 servers if uptime matters.

Re:Introducing PackageManagement in Windows 10 by WorldWideWayne on Friday May 01, 2015 @11:48AM (#9472217)
I understand all of that and I agree with you.

However, if people are going to make irrelevant points about "not having downtime with Linux" then I am going to fuck with them.

Re:Introducing PackageManagement in Windows 10 by e40 on Friday May 01, 2015 @11:00AM (#9471811)
That is BS. When you install updates it restarts to install them. The time is proportional to the number of updates.
Re:Introducing PackageManagement in Windows 10 by noblethrasher on Wednesday April 29, 2015 @03:14PM (#9460936)
A server is just a name. Just because a host machine needs to go down doesn't mean that the "server" has to go down.
Re:Introducing PackageManagement in Windows 10 by SomeStupidPoint on Wednesday April 29, 2015 @03:57PM (#9461264)
Popular (gaming) services have weekly downtimes to patch servers, and while users are annoyed, they seem to get over it and keep playing just fine.
Re:Introducing PackageManagement in Windows 10 by TillE on Wednesday April 29, 2015 @06:57PM (#9462369)
It's completely insane to have multi-hour downtime every week the way Blizzard does. Between that and their regionally segregated Battle.net (there's no good excuse that you can't play Hearthstone with anyone anywhere), they're basically stuck on server architectures from the 90s.
Re:Introducing PackageManagement in Windows 10 by e40 on Wednesday April 29, 2015 @03:43PM (#9461166)
Windows Server needs to restart at MOST once a month ("patch tuesday").

BUT if Windows patches came out as often as CentOS patches do, I'd been rebooting every other day.

Re:Introducing PackageManagement in Windows 10 by tne on Thursday April 30, 2015 @05:55AM (#9464117)
This is the approach taken by LY-Linux ("patch leap year"), although better implemented IMO. In fact, I typically only have to restart my servers once every 4 years (at most).

Look it up, it's awesome. (Please don't.)