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Re:Show HN: I'm a 14 year-old dev who has programmed an arti... by vixen99 on Thursday April 16, 2015 @05:28AM (#9386754)
Pedantic if you like but as with 'pregnant', you can't qualify 'unique'. You either are or you're not.
Re:Show HN: I'm a 14 year-old dev who has programmed an arti... by coldtea on Thursday April 16, 2015 @05:37AM (#9386782)
Pedantic, but unlike pregant you can qualify unique.

Unlike pregnant which is a binary (are/are not), unique means the quality of differing from other things, and this is a continium.

Even the dictionary, in one of the terms for unique, gives a meaning that's not "unique" in a binary way at all:

"not typical; unusual".

If it wasn't a continuum we wouldn't have expressions like "totally unique" or the "most unique" used above (like we don't have for pregnancy). And they are not mere errors (like using your instead of you're etc.), they are used to express this notion, that something can be "different" than all other things in different deegres.

Re:Show HN: I'm a 14 year-old dev who has programmed an arti... by SideburnsOfDoom on Thursday April 16, 2015 @06:47AM (#9386999)
> Pedantic, but unlike pregant you can qualify unique.

Pedantic, but you can't. Unique is not a gradable adjective. This is not just my opinion :

http://blog.oxforddictionaries.com/2012/05/an-extremely-most...

http://learnenglish.britishcouncil.org/en/grammar-reference/...

https://www.englishclub.com/grammar/adjectives-gradable-non....

> we wouldn't have expressions like "totally unique" or the "most unique"

I wouldn't normally bring this up, but while we're being pedantic, there are lots of reasonably common expressions that exhibit gratingly poor grammar or sematics. You have quoted two of them above.

> unique means the quality of differing from other things, and this is a continium.

Ah no. Unique means "one of a kind", not merely "differing". "uni" as a prefix means one, e.g unicycle, universe, unitard. "one of a kind"-ness is not continuous! As per the second link, "unique" already contains the idea of "very different".

Re:Show HN: I'm a 14 year-old dev who has programmed an arti... by coldtea on Thursday April 16, 2015 @08:40AM (#9387501)
Sorry to be pedantic, but your very first reference confirms what I said:

>However, sometimes the situation isn’t so cut and dried. There’s a set of adjectives (including perfect, infinite, and unique) which fall into both categories, gradable and absolute. (...)

>(...) unique has developed a weaker, less precise meaning: ‘very remarkable, special, or unusual’. The historical Oxford English Dictionary first records this sense in the 19th century, and it’s now well established. The ‘very remarkable or special’ meaning is not an absolute concept and is therefore gradable, so it’s grammatically acceptable to use modifying adverbs:

√ I saw a guy wearing some really unique eyeglasses. √ They’ve devised a highly unique way to cook and serve meals.

http://blog.oxforddictionaries.com/2012/05/an-extremely-most...

Re:Show HN: I'm a 14 year-old dev who has programmed an arti... by chernevik on Thursday April 16, 2015 @07:23AM (#9387134)
If you want to argue English usage with Shakespeare, that's your business.

"My matter hath no voice, to your own most pregnant and vouchsafed ear." -- Viola, "Twelfth Night"

Re:Show HN: I'm a 14 year-old dev who has programmed an arti... by SideburnsOfDoom on Thursday April 16, 2015 @09:18AM (#9387700)
I wasn't talking about "pregnant" and I personally don't care about it. "Unique" literally means "there is only one". Now where would you insert the word "most" in the sentence "there is only one"?
Re:Show HN: I'm a 14 year-old dev who has programmed an arti... by chernevik on Thursday April 16, 2015 @09:57AM (#9387920)
“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.” “The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.” “The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master—that’s all.”
Re:Show HN: I'm a 14 year-old dev who has programmed an arti... by innguest on Thursday April 16, 2015 @01:40PM (#9389492)
So Humpty Dumpty is a relativist?

"It just means what I choose it to mean" is the basis of Relativism.

Could Humpty Dumpty say "I like ice cream" and mean "atoms are actually divisible"? If not then does that mean your argument is a boatload of crap?

Re:Show HN: I'm a 14 year-old dev who has programmed an arti... by chernevik on Thursday April 16, 2015 @02:32PM (#9389894)
When someone quotes a great author, they are often not standing on a single sentence, but on the larger meaning of some story signified by that sentence. Star Trek's Tamarians whole language was references to stories -- "Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra" is, for them, a highly compressed statement. So literature enormously expands our vocabulary, allowing us to use quotes as "pointers" to ideas much larger than anything we could state briefly.

Humpty is a great story: http://sabian.org/looking_glass6.php, it's a wonderful exploration of meaning and usage.

But I'll unpack some of here.

Here's the lead up to the quote I gave:

"[Humpty said:] As I was saying, that seems to be done right — though I haven't time to look it over thoroughly just now — and that shows that there are three hundred and sixty-four days when you might get un-birthday presents —'

'Certainly,' said Alice.

'And only one for birthday presents, you know. There's glory for you!'

'I don't know what you mean by "glory",' Alice said.

Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. 'Of course you don't — till I tell you. I meant "there's a nice knock-down argument for you!"' 'But "glory" doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument",' Alice objected."

I think it is clear that Humpty's meaning was quite obvious, and Alice's complaint a bit dense. But while Humpty insists that he must tell Alice what he means, we can see that he needn't.

Of course, this word commanding business is as dangerous as you note, and Lewis Carroll is on the case:

"Alice was too much puzzled to say anything; so after a minute Humpty Dumpty began again. 'They've a temper, some of them — particularly verbs: they're the proudest — adjectives you can do anything with, but not verbs — however, I can manage the whole lot of them! Impenetrability! That's what I say!'

'Would you tell me please,' said Alice, 'what that means?'

'Now you talk like a reasonable child,' said Humpty Dumpty, looking very much pleased. 'I meant by "impenetrability" that we've had enough of that subject, and it would be just as well if you'd mention what you mean to do next, as I suppose you don't mean to stop here all the rest of your life.'

'That's a great deal to make one word mean,' Alice said in a thoughtful tone.

'When I make a word do a lot of work like that,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'I always pay it extra.'"

On the one hand, words can have many meanings, and any particular meaning must in part be taken from context. On the other hand, if we just try to _impose_ a meaning on a word, we defeat all communication, and make ourselves ridiculous to boot.

Re:Show HN: I'm a 14 year-old dev who has programmed an arti... by innguest on Thursday April 16, 2015 @05:16PM (#9390798)
> When someone quotes a great author [it is for] the larger meaning of some story signified by that sentence.

That doesn't work when people are exchanging ideas on a forum and not everyone has read the same body of work. Because of the difficulty inherent in estimating who has read what, it is usually smart to avoid arguments "from the arts".

> allowing us to use quotes as "pointers" to ideas much larger than anything we could state briefly.

Larger than you could state briefly. Plus, aphorisms exist to fill in the gap you're talking about - all the benefits of brevity without the need for previous literary knowledge.

The excerpt you quoted reads like a boring story about a character that suffers from an affectation that makes him (her?) obsessed with trying to find reasons for using words loosely. I also didn't understand what he/she meant by "there's glory for you" even after the supposed explanation of what "glory" means in Dumpty's head.

Re:Show HN: I'm a 14 year-old dev who has programmed an arti... by chernevik on Thursday April 16, 2015 @08:42PM (#9391673)
Humpty isn't really about using words _loosely_:

"'If you can see whether I'm singing or not, you've sharper eyes than most,' Humpty Dumpty remarked severely."

If you think "Alice In Wonderland" is boring, you're missing out.

Re:Show HN: I'm a 14 year-old dev who has programmed an arti... by innguest on Thursday April 16, 2015 @01:05PM (#9389255)
This argument that "Shakespeare wrote this therefore it's right" doesn't work.

Read How to Speak and Write Correctly by Joseph Devlin for several instances of where Shakespeare made English mistakes and how to actually write correct English without appeal to authority.

That argument works, though, if we were speaking a language with a regulating body, such as French or Portuguese. Those regulating bodies define their languages in such a way that the "famous writers" never make mistakes. That's not the case with English. Let's keep English real. Shakespeare made several mistakes, read Devlin's grammar.

Re:Show HN: I'm a 14 year-old dev who has programmed an arti... by chernevik on Thursday April 16, 2015 @02:17PM (#9389763)
English isn't a compiled language. We can offer expressions that violate its "rules" and are still effective and powerful. It cannot be any other way. We know from Godel that no logical system can be consistent _and_ complete, so the use any human language must either admit violations of principle or accept limitations on what can be said in that language. It is the quality and success of the expression, not its compliance with grammatical rules, by which we judge expressions. The tests are "do you know what is meant" and "could it be said better", not "is it grammatical".

There are, therefore, no hard and fast authorities on English usage. English has principles and precedents, but not rules, and good writing is that which uses or violates those principles to communicate effectively. Shakespeare isn't an authority on usage, he's a compendium of examples of how usage can be harnessed for expression.

Now following those principles, and leveraging the readers' understanding and usage of them, allows far more expressive sentences. Gibbon writes enormous sentences that are clear as water and more efficient than any possible revision. Lincoln, by mastery of grammar, was able to express himself both powerfully and precisely. But the rules are in the service of expression, and good writers depart them when they don't permit the expression of what they want to say.

Complaints about the "mistakes" of great authors are generally mistakes about what the other meant to say, or insistence on some compliance that would damage brevity or power or nuance without adding any clarity. On ten minutes googling Devlin, I couldn't find a single "mistake" whose correction would clearly improve the sentence. Several of his examples miss the point, or weaken the sentence.

But if you want an authority, go to C.S. Lewis:

"About amn't I, aren't I and am I not, of course there are no right or wrong answers about language in the sense in which there are right and wrong answers in Arithmetic. . . . Don't take any notice of teachers and textbooks in such matters. Nor of logic. It is good to say "more than one passenger was hurt," although more than one equals at least two and therefore logically the verb ought to be plural were not singular was!"

http://www.lettersofnote.com/2012/04/c-s-lewis-on-writing.ht...

Re:Show HN: I'm a 14 year-old dev who has programmed an arti... by innguest on Thursday April 16, 2015 @05:03PM (#9390726)
Your Lewis quote contradicts your very first paragraph, as the quote argues languages aren't like logic and arithmetic, and in your first paragraph you assume languages are like logic and arithmetic enough to suffer from the same incompleteness problem (if I remember correctly only systems that include arithmetic can't be proven consistent?).

"More than one person is" is correct not because of any systematic reason, but because of euphony - it is more pleasing to the ear than "more than one person are". That, and whether the communication was effective, are the rulers of languages. That's how we got to where we are and how we go to where we are going. Not with central bodies regulating languages and not with language authorities we must emulate or check our usage against.

> Complaints about the "mistakes" of great authors are generally [...]

Yes, a lot of people have trouble accepting that even the greats make mistakes.

Re:Show HN: I'm a 14 year-old dev who has programmed an arti... by Tloewald on Thursday April 16, 2015 @06:56AM (#9387038)
Pedantic but the misuse of "unique" is semantics not grammar.
Re:Show HN: I'm a 14 year-old dev who has programmed an arti... by SideburnsOfDoom on Thursday April 16, 2015 @07:01AM (#9387050)
Thank you for your pedantic addition ;)
Re:Show HN: I'm a 14 year-old dev who has programmed an arti... by JonnieCache on Thursday April 16, 2015 @07:14AM (#9387095)
I thought we'd all learned to stop worrying and love descriptivism?
Re:Show HN: I'm a 14 year-old dev who has programmed an arti... by SideburnsOfDoom on Thursday April 16, 2015 @07:27AM (#9387151)
If we are talking about descriptive linguistics "analyzing and describing how language is actually used" as opposed to formal rules ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_description ), then we must also love how the way that I use the English language differs from the way that you use it. And how my well-documented variant works too, and why they differ.

I don't use "unique" that way. Do you want "unique" to be just a redundant synonym for "different" or not?

Re:Show HN: I'm a 14 year-old dev who has programmed an arti... by coldtea on Thursday April 16, 2015 @08:45AM (#9387525)
The thing with "descriptive" is that it's not about what you or I "want".

Nor are there "multiple languages". There's one language and in that language, unique IS used that way by some (most) people.

The cat's out of the bag.

Re:Show HN: I'm a 14 year-old dev who has programmed an arti... by SideburnsOfDoom on Thursday April 16, 2015 @09:20AM (#9387712)
> The thing with "descriptive" is that it's not about what you or I "want".

Maybe not, but it is about what I do or don't say.

> Nor are there "multiple languages". There's one language

I don't think so, actually. There are differences in usage e.g. from. US to UK.

Re:Show HN: I'm a 14 year-old dev who has programmed an arti... by comex on Thursday April 16, 2015 @03:38PM (#9390303)
It's not quite a synonym for "different", though. If you say "that's a very different project", there has to be some context for what it's different from; it can't stand alone, except in some colloquialisms. On the other hand, if you say "that's a highly unique project", it's understood that it's very different from 'most of the (actual) other projects'... and aside from being verbose, that formulation is only an approximation to the meaning of "unique". For one thing, "unique" suggests a holistic comparison among the whole class, while something like "different from most" suggests a series of two-way comparisons (is it different from A? is it different from B?), each of which can only be yes or no, and "most just counts how many of the results are yeses. This is not necessarily what is intended, since the meaning can be corrupted into 'different from [the general characteristics of a group containing most of the others]', but I'd call that more abusive than just grading "unique". And even that changes the meaning of the grade: if something is 'extremely different from most of the others', then it can still be identical to a decent chunk of the others; the adverb only applies within the aforementioned comparison(s) (even if to a group). If something is extremely unique, then it's probably different from almost all of the others, but chances are it's also very different from most of them; the adverb applies to the holistic comparison.
Re:Show HN: I'm a 14 year-old dev who has programmed an arti... by JonnieCache on Thursday April 16, 2015 @08:13AM (#9387350)
> Do you want "unique" to be just a redundant synonym for "different" or not?

I could care less.

Re:Show HN: I'm a 14 year-old dev who has programmed an arti... by SideburnsOfDoom on Thursday April 16, 2015 @09:16AM (#9387691)
> I could care less.

Maybe you could, but I could not ;)

Re:Show HN: I'm a 14 year-old dev who has programmed an arti... by chrisweekly on Thursday April 16, 2015 @03:24PM (#9390224)
Pedantry aside, I'd like to suggest that common sense and should always trump grammatical "rules". If we might assume the layperson's definition, "one of a kind" (ie, one instance in a set), and acknowledge that one such kind may represent a radically larger set than another, how might we use English to describe the difference?

The letter "R" is unique in the English alphabet. The particular grain of sand in the palm of my hand is unique to the world's beaches.

Are "R" and this grain of sand equally unique? Might there be a way to compare them?

I don't want to debate the point, rather to pose the question and see what any responses might illuminate.

Have a nice day. :)

Re:Show HN: I'm a 14 year-old dev who has programmed an arti... by chernevik on Thursday April 16, 2015 @08:48AM (#9387540)
I think "most unique" works here, perhaps because I can read "most" as emphasizing the importance of the uniqueness rather than modifying its degree.

Pedantry is attention to compliance with usage "rules" rather than the success of the expression.

Re:Show HN: I'm a 14 year-old dev who has programmed an arti... by V-2 on Thursday April 16, 2015 @01:00PM (#9389225)
Not a native speaker here, but that's probably not unlike "the very last", even though being last in and of itself is not gradable :)
Re:Show HN: I'm a 14 year-old dev who has programmed an arti... by chernevik on Thursday April 16, 2015 @01:27PM (#9389387)
Yes.

Your English is far, far better than my command of whatever your native tongue is.

Re:Show HN: I'm a 14 year-old dev who has programmed an arti... by V-2 on Saturday April 18, 2015 @04:27AM (#9398722)
No mean feat
Re:Show HN: I'm a 14 year-old dev who has programmed an arti... by learnstats2 on Thursday April 16, 2015 @05:40AM (#9386793)
Nope on both counts. It's a common idiom to say that someone is 'very pregnant'.
Re:Show HN: I'm a 14 year-old dev who has programmed an arti... by mryan on Thursday April 16, 2015 @06:21AM (#9386913)
That simply means they have a very large baby bump. It does not mean that they are "more pregnant" than a lady with a smaller bump. Pregnancy is a binary state.
Re:Show HN: I'm a 14 year-old dev who has programmed an arti... by corobo on Thursday April 16, 2015 @07:30AM (#9387169)
Being pregnant is a binary state. Pregnancy is a process.
Re:Show HN: I'm a 14 year-old dev who has programmed an arti... by mryan on Thursday April 16, 2015 @09:07AM (#9387651)
Of course. The point still stands - a person either is, or is not, in state of pregnancy.

I think that, from context, it was clear I was using "pregnancy" to mean "the state of being pregnant" and not referring to the nine month gestation period.

That'll teach me to contribute to pedantry-focussed subthreads. :-)

Re:Show HN: I'm a 14 year-old dev who has programmed an arti... by Retra on Thursday April 16, 2015 @02:08PM (#9389680)
Pretty much nothing is binary. Pregnancy is only approximately binary. Whether you're right or wrong about it certainly isn't. And nobody uses language in a binary manner.
Re:Show HN: I'm a 14 year-old dev who has programmed an arti... by DonHopkins on Thursday April 16, 2015 @08:17AM (#9387371)
There's a perceptual dialectological difference between "hella pregnant" (Northern California) and "totally pregnant" (Southern California).

Hella Nor Cal or Totally So Cal? The Perceptual Dialectology of California

http://eng.sagepub.com/content/35/4/325.abstract

http://people.duke.edu/~eec10/hellanorcal.pdf

This study provides the first detailed account of perceptual dialectology within California (as well as one of the first accounts of perceptual dialectology within any single state). Quantitative analysis of a map-labeling task carried out in Southern California reveals that California's most salient linguistic boundary is between the northern and southern regions of the state. Whereas studies of the perceptual dialectology of the United States as a whole have focused almost exclusively on regional dialect differences, respondents associated particular regions of California less with distinctive dialects than with differences in language (English versus Spanish), slang use, and social groups. The diverse sociolinguistic situation of California is reflected in the emphasis both on highly salient social groups thought to be stereotypical of California by residents and nonresidents alike (e.g., surfers) and on groups that, though prominent in the cultural landscape of the state, remain largely unrecognized by outsiders (e.g., hicks).

[...]

By far, the most frequently remarked-upon slang term in the map-labeling data was hella, accounting for 47.4 percent of the slang and other lexical labels. Hella is a slang term originating in Northern California and one that remains—aside from a few brief moments in the national spotlight due to its circulation in popular culture— largely restricted to that region (Bucholtz 2006). The term, which apparently lexicalized from (a) hell of (a), functions as both a quantifier (There were hella people there) and an intensifier (He runs hella fast). Four respondents also mentioned the slang term hecka, the G-rated equivalent of hella, but this term was not counted separately, because tokens of hecka always co-occurred with hella. For Southern Californians in particular, hella represents a crucial shibboleth separating the two major regions of the state. As shown in Figure 7, respondents tended to identify hella overwhelmingly as a Northern California slang term, and its appearance in other regions of the map drops dramatically from north to south. Thus Northern California was variously labeled the hellas, Land of the Hella’s, and Hella capital, and one respondent provided an isogloss designating “the ‘hella’ line.” (In the map data, the Central Coast around Santa Barbara seemed to be the dividing line between users and nonusers of hella, and the fact that the study was conducted in this region may have enhanced respondents’ focus on this particular issue.) [*10: The respondent’s confusion may also be due to the existence of the Crips, a notorious Los Angeles–based gang.] Hella users were also negatively evaluated by Southern Californians, and the term came in for a good deal of criticism, such as Hella is not a real word and [hecka is] probably the worst word ever.