News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Typekit launches by Silhouette on Tuesday November 10, 2009 @01:47PM (#933642)
There are several outfits trying to do this lately, but I just can't see these services gaining much traction.

They seem to exist to provide for the whims of font foundries who want to eat their cake and have it, in a way that no-one else gets. The stock images and icons on web sites can all be downloaded and used on other sites illegally as well, yet in practice this hasn't killed either the stock suppliers or the web in general!

Meanwhile, why would any professional web design firm recommend to their clients that they commit to writing a blank cheque, indefinitely, after the design contract is finished, (edit: and relying on a service outside of their control!), just to keep their site up and running and looking correct?

It's not as if there aren't alternatives for the cases where use of non-web-safe fonts makes a difference: we've been using custom images, even dynamic image replacement techniques, since forever. These don't really scale from occasional uses like headings and pull quotes to the full volume of body text, but for typical body text sizes using custom fonts is unlikely to gain any useful improvement anyway; even most pro-grade don't have the kind of hinting that the Microsoft and Apple standard fonts have.

So I have to wonder, why should the world bend to the font foundries' obsolete business models, when there are numerous alternative technologies available that get the same wow factor where it counts, there are many free fonts available (including a few genuinely of professional quality these days), and there just isn't much of a compelling selling point from the client's point of view to signing up for fonts-as-a-service?

Re:Typekit launches by tptacek on Wednesday November 11, 2009 @01:00AM (#934719)
Of all the copyright-holding businesses affected by the Internet, it seems to me the foundries are among the coolest. Their work is rampantly pirated. Only a tiny fraction of the people using SIFR and image replacement have actually licensed their type for embedding on the web. They could be hassling hundreds of sites over this, and they'd be well within their rights to do so.

What I get off this comment is that you think it's "obsolete" to suggest people should pay for typefaces. But typefaces, even moreso than music and movies, take years and years of painstaking work to create, and the truly useful faces are created by a tiny group of people who've dedicated their lives to the craft.

Why do you oppose paying them?

Re:Typekit launches by Silhouette on Wednesday November 11, 2009 @02:09AM (#934802)
> What I get off this comment is that you think it's "obsolete" to suggest people should pay for typefaces.

Then, respectfully, you should reread it and then reply to what I actually wrote.

The point is not that I think fonts should be free. I have personally paid the equivalent of hundreds of dollars for pro-grade fonts, because I like my work to look good.

The point is that it's unrealistic for the foundries to expect that instead of paying for a font and then being able to use it, as we've managed in the civilised world for decades, we will now all move to a fonts-as-a-service model, where we will pay ongoing fees for DRM-crippled products served via third party systems out of our control.

There simply isn't any upside to that for the consumer, other than perhaps cheaper experiments with different fonts, which is of very limited value anyway if you're working with a professional agency with access to a large collection of fonts. The downsides, on the other hand, are potentially severe.

Re:Typekit launches by tptacek on Wednesday November 11, 2009 @02:31AM (#934828)
Image replacement is a huge pain in the ass. SIFR will get less compatible as time goes on, not more (already, I lose SIFR fonts because of ClickToFlash, and multiple bigcorps are moving to ban flash on corp desktops).

I think what you're paying for is convenience.

Re:Typekit launches by Silhouette on Wednesday November 11, 2009 @02:55AM (#934860)
> I think what you're paying for is convenience.

Not really.

Convenience would be paying for a font and then using it on my web site, just the way I do with photos, icons, and other such resources.

Convenience is not jumping through hoops to integrate with an external service of unknown reliability, understanding non-trivial legal agreements with an industry infamous for trying to screw its legitimate customers, and paying more in a single year for font-as-a-service than I pay for permanent use of a font today just so I can legally use the font on a web site in plain text form instead of via images.

Incidentally, I notice that have mentioned elsewhere in this discussion that image replacement technologies are likely to violate the licensing terms of fonts. As far as I'm aware, there haven't been any significant test cases yet in this area in any major western jurisdictions, and the legalities are far from clear, because the font foundries can only protect their rights up to the extent that copyright law grants them. Copyright law incorporates concepts such as fair use (or your local equivalent). Moreover, in some jurisdictions, the design of a font is not subject to copyright at all, only the specific description (the font files being treated as software for this purpose). Even if the font foundries would like to limit your right to buy a font, put it on a server, and have the server generate renderings of specific text in that font, it's not entirely clear what their legal basis for doing so might be in unfavourable jurisdictions, including the US.

Re:Typekit launches by jdowdell on Wednesday November 11, 2009 @03:30PM (#936149)
Thomas Ptacek, why the odd unproofed assertion? Seems counter to the Salesforce, RIM etc trends.

(I appreciate the point you made above about font creators feeling fairly compensated for use of their creations though, thanks.)

Re:Typekit launches by tptacek on Wednesday November 11, 2009 @04:49PM (#936358)
It may not be the case that the industry as a whole is locking out Flash on their corp desktops, but it definitely is the case that there are security-conscious F-500's who're getting Flash out of their standard desktop build, so that their internal machines can't be infected simply by browsing the web.

I can't give examples, for obvious reasons, but you can probably take my word for this.

Re:Typekit launches by arvidj on Wednesday November 11, 2009 @09:07AM (#935259)
> [...] multiple bigcorps are moving to ban flash on corp desktops [...]

Do you have any more info on this? Sounds interesting!

Re:Typekit launches by viraptor on Tuesday November 10, 2009 @02:00PM (#933670)
It's not really the same to use images... It's not uncommon to see websites with a light feel, where main pages contain actual paragraphs of text at size 16-18pt - you can actually make a really good impression by changing the font to something elegant in that case. You don't need any sacrifices for usability, SEO or content management when you design those pages. The text is there for everyone and owner of the website can edit it without going through image exports, etc.

Of course it won't look as good as it would in a pdf for a couple more years, but it's a good start anyways.

Re:Typekit launches by Silhouette on Tuesday November 10, 2009 @02:10PM (#933699)
Can you give any examples of pages where you think the use of an alternative font has improved the display of body text? I'd be happy to find cases where it makes a real difference, but it has been my experience that there just isn't enough variation at typical screen resolutions between, say, one mainstream serif font and another, that the choice of font is the deciding factor in terms of impact and legibility.

Good appearance on-screen seems to be governed much more by basic design characteristics such as x-height, and by the quality of the hinting, and frankly even the serious font foundries suck at those things in comparison to the Microsoft C-fonts that were designed for anti-aliasing, the old stand-bys of Georgia and Verdana that were designed with screen use in mind, etc.

Re:Typekit launches by viraptor on Tuesday November 10, 2009 @03:12PM (#933826)
Of pages that have improved by using alternative font - unfortunately I can't. If anyone is doing that, they certainly don't advertise it, so I can't give you any specific examples.

I based my opinion almost entirely on my experience, that even a slight change of font can make a big difference in someone's perception. I've seen people being positively surprised when I use a "different" font for normal everyday text (1-2 pages). Nothing crazy - just a bit more stylish. I also got an impression that using nice fonts (with better visible horizontal lines, etc.) got me an additional point or two at the university (no scientific test of course - I've seen very similar in content, but typographically "nicer" texts getting higher marks - just my opinion)

Re:Typekit launches by Silhouette on Tuesday November 10, 2009 @04:06PM (#933942)
> I based my opinion almost entirely on my experience, that even a slight change of font can make a big difference in someone's perception.

On paper, I wouldn't necessarily disagree with you.

On screen, however, I doubt the odd pixel makes any significant difference. I'm prepared to be convinced otherwise, but I have yet to see any of these professional font foundries prove me wrong.

I do know that I have bought and paid for several pro-grade fonts, which I happily use in print, but which I wouldn't use on a web site even if I legally could. The on-screen rendering is nowhere close to as good as the fonts designed for screen use that I mentioned earlier.